With the benefit of hindsight, how to change Canada's immigration policy?

[Hydrogen]

The idea that Africa was a primitive continent with "savages" was created by Europeans in part to help justify the slave trade. The reality is that Europe and Africa had been trading for centuries; blacks were not some new discovery. They had a rich and advanced culture.

Africa is a huge and diverse continent in terms of cultures and peoples. The idea of "savage" (sauvage - as in the wild) was a more recent European notion. The cultures of North Africa are quite different from those of Central Africa, and have been so for quite a long time. This was also something already noted by Europeans of that time.

Though it is important to note that slavery was practiced for a very long time in some regions of Africa before any Europeans entered into the trade. The difference being that the Europeans had a new market for human beings, and that creates demand.

My little contribution to keeping us all off topic.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Yeah, trying to speak of one cohesive 'Africa' is insane. The maps we had in school didn't do a good job of showing it, but Africa is HUGE.

To get us back on topic: I think we should change Canada's immigration policy to better reflect the fact that Africa is HUGE.

 

[syn]

Africa is a huge and diverse continent in terms of cultures and peoples. The idea of "savage" (sauvage - as in the wild) was a more recent European notion. The cultures of North Africa are quite different from those of Central Africa, and have been so for quite a long time. This was also something already noted by Europeans of that time.

I'm aware of that, but West African states like Ghana and Mali weren't anything like Dichotomy thinks they are.

Though it is important to note that slavery was practiced for a very long time in some regions of Africa before any Europeans entered into the trade. The difference being that the Europeans had a new market for human beings, and that creates demand.

My little contribution to keeping us all off topic.

Slavery was practiced in Europe too. The kind of slavery generally practiced in Africa was also different than the kind practiced in NA, at least later on when it was racialized.

 

[Hydrogen]

If you are referring to serfs, to a very large degree serfdom broke down first with the plague and then with the rise of the merchant classes. My reference was to the slavery trade that brought African people to North America.

Much of central Africa is still crippled by a lack of development. If anything, many parts of Africa today are still held back due to an enforced dependancy on aid. This is largely a construct of the West.

 

[Dichotomy]

The Druids? There are still surviving members of the residential school system in Canada. The Canadian government still exists. Aboriginal living conditions remain at third world standards. How many living druids can you find nowadays? Is there a Roman Empire left to apologize?

(The answer to the last two questions is no, FYI)

And what exactly are you saying here? That you would not have wiped out the aboriginals yourself, but would have preferred if your grandpappy had? Jee, you have an affection for genocide and yet you still wonder when people call you "racist".


You don't even know what you posted. You stated:

.


What exactly does this mean? What do you think historians have been doing for the past few hundreds of years? Get off your ass and read a history book.

Many major inventions have had their origins in various countries, often being developed concurrently or with the success of one inventor beings used as the base for another. The steam turbine, compass, cement, etc. all have origins outside of Europe. But even if you were right, how does this support your argument? Restriction to the free movement of people wasn't the driving force behind European inventions. Neither was cultural conservatism. This topic barely even relates to immigration, yet here we are discussing it thanks to you. All we need now is an inane anecdote about your Brazillian partner, and you'll have succeeded in derailing another thread on UT.

I won't stoop to your level, but let me point out that there were two assertions being rebutted: 1) nearly all modern successful nation-states have direct lineage with Great Britain and 2) most important inventions/discovereries are/were from European nations or THEIR offshoots.

 

[Dichotomy]

Well, Dichotomy's partner is a "noble savage". He's broken-English crotch candy. I'll betcha there's tensions in that relationship...

??? That's just pathetic and says more about YOU than me.

 

[Dichotomy]

The same can be said for any continent. I don't think it's possible at this point to overestimate the state of Africa before slavery. Most people just assume it was very primitive and very unsophisticated.

Africa's current state can be attributed in large part to the effects of slavery and colonialism. The continent, as a whole, is still recovering.

I'm not saying Africa was perfect, but Dichotomy's idea that it was some 3rd world hellhole isn't really accurate.

Did I say that? Africa is a hell-hole NOW, but not when it was 'discovered' by the Europeans. If you read back, I said that they were for the most part happy, and yes they had (have) a rich culture.

Everyone piling on here is making my case, not refuting it.

We in the West have grown so accustomed to apologising for our successes and our way of life, that we can only make ourselves feel better by glamorizing the ancient peoples that we trampled over and debase our own accomplishments. I never said that our past is not checkered. But our past is the PAST. We can never attone for it (nor should we, since none of us living were there when this all transpired), so let's move on.
I have read many books on history and one of the biggest themes I have taken away is that xenophobia is counter-productive - that is why China and Persia became failed states. They rejected new ideas and tried to either close their borders or subjugate those around them. Europe's rise is as much to do with its interaction of ideas/cultures as its flirting with secularism.
My point is that it is all fine and dandy for Canada to pay lipservice to multi-culturalism and throw open our doors to all, but unless we assert our own culture, we are going to be the ones assimilated. France and England are starting to learn that the hard way.

 

[theman23]

I won't stoop to your level, but let me point out that there were two assertions being rebutted: 1) nearly all modern successful nation-states have direct lineage with Great Britain and 2) most important inventions/discovereries are/were from European nations or THEIR offshoots.

And both of these assertions were shown to be false. Next?

 

[syn]

[/b]

Did I say that? Africa is a hell-hole NOW, but not when it was 'discovered' by the Europeans. If you read back, I said that they were for the most part happy, and yes they had (have) a rich culture.

You said:

It is all boo-hoo and such that we North Americans enslaved generations of Africans and dragged them here against their will. Well, get over it, I say. Be thankful you are here on these shores and have any opportunity to better yourselves. Things could be far worse: you could be festering in a grass hut, playing with camel dung along with a few hundred million of your distant cousins in Africa.

The whole point is without the slave trade Africa would likely be in far better shape than it is now. So to somehow dimisss it all as a chance for growth is pretty ridiculous.

I have read many books on history and one of the biggest themes I have taken away is that xenophobia is counter-productive - that is why China and Persia became failed states. They rejected new ideas and tried to either close their borders or subjugate those around them. Europe's rise is as much to do with its interaction of ideas/cultures as its flirting with secularism.

My point is that it is all fine and dandy for Canada to pay lipservice to multi-culturalism and throw open our doors to all, but unless we assert our own culture, we are going to be the ones assimilated. France and England are starting to learn that the hard way.

Do you know what xenophobia is? You're contradicting yourself.

 

[urbandreamer]

I wonder: who were the slave traders? Are there any documents proving who there identities were? If so, descendants of slaves could sue the traders' descendants' pants off....

(Translation: Surely the traders and businessmen involved in the trade were ultimately responsible? I mean, for example, Irish peasants that moved to America in 1890--can we blame their descendents for slavery?)

Honestly, here's how I look at it: Throughout history, and into the future, there will always be a group or groups of people that are exploited by the intellectual and/or business class. Today, that is obviously new immigrants to Canada working minimum wage jobs, or Chinese peasants working for peanuts to produce goods for Western-style consumers. So c.1700 it was African slaves; today it's immigrants; tomorrow ... uneducated white people? Who knows....?

In 4008, Americans could become the "slaves" working for the Iranian elite?

 

[Dichotomy]

And both of these assertions were shown to be false. Next?

Silly me, you're right: it was an African that set foot on the moon, an Egyptian that discovered penicillin, Jame Watt was really a closet Tibetan monk and Charles Goodyear was a secret Persian.

Sheesh: spend more time on the Discovery Channel, at least. Of the 100 most influential scientists of all time, most were from the U.S., the British Isles or Germany.

From the Wright brothers to the invention of the elevator, I'm not seeing too many non-Europeans on the list. If we go back 500 years plus, then a few names pop up, with respect to explosives, written language... I'd guess whomever invented the wheel was probably NOT European.

It's more intriguing because the Incas and ancient Persians had quite a bit technology and culture - but it all withered away.

To try and get this thread back on subject, if we do not acknowledge WHY the West has been so successful and build on those traits, we are doomed to be over-run or our civilization will merely collapse under its own inertia.

 

[vicente]

Let's not talk about changing the past, it's gone.

For the future:

a.) Mandatory English & French language testing for those who claim that they "speak English" unless they hold citizenship /have lived in an English/French-speaking country for the past 5 years. This avoids the recent debacle about the TEFL testing proposal.

b.) Cultural values test: For example, "What would you do if you discovered your 15-year-old son was gay?" or "What would you do if your daughter married someone of another religion?"

The answers will be screened for responses that would be considered criminal or abusive behavior to our Western society. Should our cultural values change, let them change due to us Canadians changing our attitudes, not from our importing of foreign bigotry.

c.) Length of time needed to gain citizenship be increased from 3 to 5 years. People can't learn a language fluently in only 3 years, let alone form a perpetual emotional bond with a new country in that time.

d.) Conditional birthright citizenship: Children of non-citizens who were born in Canada lose their citizenship if they have not lived in Canada for 5 out of their first 8 years. So if illegal aliens come here to give birth and get deported, they're not going to be back when they let their Canadian-by-birth-only kid "sponsor" them back.

e.) Stepped-up enforcement of deportation orders: everyone deportable should be out of our country within 12 months.

No country quotas or by-country discrimination necessary.

 

[theowne]

Dichotomy:

We in the West have grown so accustomed to apologising for our successes and our way of life

I think the sense of entitlement and pride in the accomplishments of others is amusing. You can usually tell who in a group is not the sharpest tool in the shed based on whether he goes on about how proud he feels because other people who were geographically born in the same area accomplished great things. Unless you have been involved in any scientific breakthrough recentlys, I don't think you would even have any right to be apologizing for anyone's successes, Dichotomy.

3. Virtually every single invention worth mentioning was created,
invented or popularized by one of a handful of European nations,
or their colonial offshoots (Canada, the U.S.)

Paper and printing (China) aren't worth mentioning, I guess. Neither are the numerals and decimal system (India).

I have a book recommendation for you, it's called "Lost Discoveries" by Dick Teresi. Like you, the author began as a man on a rampant quest to dismiss any claim that non-Europeans ever did anything noteworthy. By the end, he was drowning in historical evidence of inventions and science outside of Europe, and wrote this book.

Just because you haven't heard of them, doesn't mean they don't exist.

If the Aboriginals and immigrants who come here looking for a better life

No comment needed here.

It is all boo-hoo and such that we North Americans enslaved generations of Africans and dragged them here against their will. Well, get over it, I say. Be thankful you are here on these shores and have any opportunity to better yourselves. Things could be far worse: you could be festering in a grass hut, playing with camel dung along with a few hundred million of your distant cousins in Africa.

Yes, generations of slavery of human beings against their will, who cares, it's nothing to worry about.

Sadly, I think that Dichotomy is veering away form his old persona of "level-headed and realistic commentator" and more into the generic "white ppl rule" racist persona. Listen, Dichotomy, why are you beating around the bush, slowly inching towards what you really want to say? Just let out your true opinions about how non-white people are ingrates who should be thankful for everything the glorious European has done, and should kneel before them when meeting them on the street. No need to beat around the bush.

If you want an example of how to make this argument without sounding like you have a white hooded costume next to your dresser, read my post made a few pages ago. Essentially, I made the exact same argument you did (about culture and assimilation), but did in a way that, unsurprisingly, did not garner a single accusation of racism or xenophobia.

 

[Dichotomy]

You don't know me, so don't put words in my mouth...I don't know where they've been.
Read "Who Gets In," by Daniel Stoffman, then we'll chat again.

 

[theowne]

Oh, are we starting a book club? Okay, so you read "Lost Discoveries" like I said, and I'll read "Who Gets In"? How about it?

............

P.S. Opinions are best formed in your own head rather than copied out of persuasive books that sound intellectual.

It may surprise you, but I have already agreed with the core point you are trying to make of stricter integration and less fragmentation of culture and communities. It's just the way you go about doing it, and the silly accompanying remarks and essays that I find disagreeable.