accura407
Car is King
Yeah but in the long term we will have a subway which will eliminate any need for VIVA Orange in the first place. It will just be VIVA Purple & Zum.
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When is a service cut not a service cut? When YRT says it isn't
- Thread starter Electrify
- Start date
Yeah but in the long term we will have a subway which will eliminate any need for VIVA Orange in the first place. It will just be VIVA Purple & Zum.
andrewpmk
Senior Member
It would probably just be adequate to kill VIVA Orange now and have riders use TTC #196 to get to York U for the next 3 years. This route doesn't exactly have high ridership, 7.5 minute frequencies on Sunday evening is ridiculous when the rest of Vaughan has 60 minute frequencies at this time. Also extending VIVA Purple west of Jane once the subway opens is a waste of money. Let Brampton Transit run this service.
The regular bus service (e.g. 20 Jane-Concord) MUST be improved once the subway extension opens. It needs to be easy for people to get to major destinations like Vaughan Mills & Canada's Wonderland using the new subway extension. The last thing we want is a situation like the Washington Metro where many outer stations are basically park and rides, have very little connecting bus service (many neighbourhoods have no bus service or rush hour only bus service) and consequently it is impossible to get anywhere in the suburbs without a car. A subway extension is useless if it has c**p bus service or no bus service connecting to it. In the future, if York Region wants provincial funding for projects such as the Yonge extension to Highway 7, the province must insist that YRT commit to improving feeder bus service on major routes to 15-20 minute off peak frequencies, and refuse to provide funding otherwise.
BMO
Senior Member
YRT is in an unfortunate situation where in a lot of places it HAS to act like an extension of the TTC in York Region (i.e. link to subway routes in Toronto), but cannot attract riders feasibly because of the double-fare. I feel confident enough to say that if the double fare was eliminated on YRT routes that headed to finch/ downsview, every single YRT bus at current frequencies would be packed to the brim. People will put up with a lot of inconvenience for transit (i.e longer waits or ONE higher fare) but hardly anybody will choose to wait longer AND pay a double fare to add insult to injury.
There really aren't that many POI's or destinations within Southern York Region. Youv'e got the typical movie plazas and some malls, but in general, if people are looking for entertainment they're usually focused on going down to Toronto from York Region. If a co-fare deal "a la GO Transit" was adopted (something like $1 extra on-top of the already $3.25 fare for the YRT if transferring to TTC) I think this would benefit YRT tremendously, although I'll be honest, I'm not sure what the TTC has to gain from it.
It's just very frustrating when everyone knows what the issue is and how to fix it, but that the politics behind the bureaucratic backlog of fare integration is holding stuff back. Sometimes I feel like Torontonians misinterpret Suburbanites when they see us refusing to pay a double-fare even though we live further. Suburbanites don't mind paying MORE to get downtown, what we have a problem with is paying DOUBLE when we only live 500m north of Steeles (in some cases) or only a few KMs north.
/rant
There really aren't that many POI's or destinations within Southern York Region. Youv'e got the typical movie plazas and some malls, but in general, if people are looking for entertainment they're usually focused on going down to Toronto from York Region. If a co-fare deal "a la GO Transit" was adopted (something like $1 extra on-top of the already $3.25 fare for the YRT if transferring to TTC) I think this would benefit YRT tremendously, although I'll be honest, I'm not sure what the TTC has to gain from it.
It's just very frustrating when everyone knows what the issue is and how to fix it, but that the politics behind the bureaucratic backlog of fare integration is holding stuff back. Sometimes I feel like Torontonians misinterpret Suburbanites when they see us refusing to pay a double-fare even though we live further. Suburbanites don't mind paying MORE to get downtown, what we have a problem with is paying DOUBLE when we only live 500m north of Steeles (in some cases) or only a few KMs north.
/rant
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andrewpmk
Senior Member
Reducing the double fare would help ridership a lot (but would require subsidy), but I think that ridership would go up a lot with higher frequencies even in the absence of fare reductions because there is a lot of commuter traffic within York Region, but the bus system does not work very well for those trips. Many trips within York Region require using bus routes with horrible frequencies and changing buses at busy intersections in isolated locations with little in the way of proper transfer facilities. Mississauga for instance avoids this problem because its frequencies are generally better and most transfers occur at Square One so it is more attractive for trips within Mississauga, also there seem to be plenty of people using MT to cross the Toronto boundary despite the double fare there. There are numerous major destinations within York Region, such as the Leslie/Hwy 7 office park, the industrial areas in Vaughan, Vaughan Mills, Canada's Wonderland, etc. Furthermore there is no excuse for spending lavishly on subways, bus lanes, fancy buses, fare vending machines, etc. while providing lousy bus service elsewhere. Suppose the cost of improving a number of major grid routes to 15 minute service, net of fare revenue, is $10 million/year; to provide this service improvement *in perpetuity* (assume 5% investment return and 2% inflation) is 10,000,000/(0.05-0.02)=333,333,333 which is significantly less than the cost of subways.
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W. K. Lis
Superstar
If Metrolinx/GO Transit/Government of Ontario were truly subsidizing the operation budget of public transit, they would also end up with a say in how public transit is run. They could say that to use our (bus/train) terminal or transfer point, thou shall provide a bus that will be there before the arrival time and leave after the departure.
Woodbridge_Heights
Senior Member
Which is why I suggested eliminating rte 77, its usefulness has really been diminished with the introduction of VIVA and Zum. There used to be bus loads full of people riding from Brampton the Finch station to take the subway downtown. Now I figure they take Zum to York and transfer to TTC the rest of the way to Downsview or Finch. Removing 77 would save 5+ buses running on that route.
I'm still wary of completely eliminating VIVA orange.
Transportfan
Senior Member
The 77 is still needed to serve YRT local stops.
Paleo
Active Member
The TTC gets to add operating and capital expenditures required to support the extra service and send the bill to City of Toronto property taxpayers.
BTW the GO co-fare is paid by GO to the local transit agency. It is not an act of charity by the local municipality. Given how cheap York has proven itself to be, do you really think they'd pay the TTC $1 for each passenger? Or the other way around, do you see the City of Toronto paying York $1 for each customer that they bring to the TTC?
BMO
Senior Member
I'm sure having TTC buses operate 2 - 4kms north of steeles (their Toronto boundary) at an elevated fare (more expensive than TTC) does not hurt the TTC financially even if Toronto taxpayers have to add operating and capital expenditures, i'm sure the fare difference makes up for it...although I do think this is a pretty weak anti-York Region argument...not like having the 20? (maybe more) buses a day that cross Steeles adds THAT much strain to the system...I'm sure there are clauses in the contract for York Region to pick=up the tab for maintenance of those buses etc...otherwise TTC is just on another level of retardedness if they don't put in measures like that to protect themselves.
I did know GO subsidizes the co-fares...I was referring to the notion that it's a hell of a lot more sustainable for York Region to subsidize transfers so that buses run FULL rather than run empty. If not directly, then through externalities like reduced congestion, environment, and all that stuff. Granted with PRESTO implemented they should do a fare by distance sort of thing so that you don't have someone traveling from Newmarket and only paying $1 to transfer.
Considering a lot of riders on the 53, 60 and other routes come from York Region and add stress to those bus routes (which are crazy busy during peak hours) This may alleviate some pressure on TTC routes.
Electrify
Senior Member
This thread is making me more and more confident that we should just disband all of the GTA transit services and simply operate everything under Metrolinx...
BMO
Senior Member
I agree. I think eventually we're moving towards that. Or at least have all the transit systems owned under the larger umbrella of Metrolinx and operated by their respective municipalities (still retaining their unique transit logos).
Hell why we're at it get Metrolinx to own the ferries, bixi and the highways too and toll them
Now that's what I call a comprehensive transit system that takes into account the transit cocktail mix.
doady
Senior Member
Bus lanes make the service more efficient and saves money the long run, so why not? I'm surprised more bus lanes don't get built.
Toronto was already planning to extend the subway to York U anyways, which no doubt is a more logical terminus that the current Downsview station. A short 2 km extension to Vaughan Corporate Centre is not a big deal.
Again, I think VIVA is more to blame for YRT's financial troubles. And obviously their reliance on contractors hasn't helped either, judging from the ongoing strike.
I wouldn't be suprised if more transfers (between MT buses) happen at Hurontario-Dundas than at Square One. Frequencies are probably the main issue. But I guess it would help if bus shelters in York had maps, like the ones in Toronto and Mississauga do. Brampton isn't exactly a paradise for transferring transit riders either, considering its shelters also have no maps and the bus stops at major intersections in Brampton are usually located far away from the intersection itself.
As far as I know, there has never been a 3 month strike for the TTC, or for any other 905 agency. This 3 month long bus strike is YRT's fault for putting themselves at the mercy of contractors paying bus drivers extremely low wages, instead of bringing all operations in-house and paying their drivers directly with a competitive wage and elminating the middleman.
Justin10000
Banned
And what has Metrolinx done to show they can operate local transit services more effectively...?
Upload all public transit planning to Metrolinx, and have an agreement worked out that X% of each municipality (or Region's) budget goes to funding transit, or just reduce transfer payments from the Province by a corresponding amount.
The way I eventually see it working is that all transit systems use a unified fare collection system, and a unified zone fare system. It wouldn't matter "who gets paid what" because in the end it's all going to Metrolinx. The only distinction would be in the bus numbering. I think that when this happens the GTA should adopt a similar bus naming system to what NYC has. Each bus route would be prefixed by a 2 letter code signifying what City/Region it's service (TO, DR, YR, PR, HR, HM), followed by the route number. Paint the buses different colours for the different regions if you like, just as long as they have a unified look to them, and are all run by Metrolinx. All rapid transit routes would use a single letter, corresponding to the service type (E = Express Rail, R = Regional Rail, S = Subway, L = LRT, B = BRT).
Using a zone fare system would see to it that people living further out would pay more, but that someone wouldn't be forced to pay a double fare just because they're crossing some imaginary municipal line. Yes, they would have to pay more if they cross a zone fare line, but that would be a small increase as opposed to a double fare. And I would hope that the system could be configured so that local routes generally stayed within 1 fare zone, and only rapid transit lines actually crossed fare boundaries.
Well they haven't shown that they aren't capable, which is more than can be said for a lot of municipal/regional transit agencies in the GTA...
But in all seriousness, I think that they have a lot of advantages that municipalities don't have:
-Increased revenue powers (tolls for example)
-Ability to plan across municipal boundaries without getting into tiffs with the neighbouring region
-Ability to better coordinate with GO Transit
Metrolinx hasn't shown very much to date, but that's because they haven't been given the opportunity. Their first big day-to-day task will be the implementation of road tolls, which the politicians have been very reluctant to even sit down and talk about. If they can manage those effectively, and we see the money is going to the right places, I think we can place a lot of confidence in them.