What should be considered a decent sized condo?

[ksun]

Like indoor plumbing and refrigeration?

no.
double sink vanities are for sure.

 

[Eug]

So I splurged on my vacation and got a 480 square foot hotel room, because aside from my wife, I also have a toddler with me.

It's a 1-bedroom suite. The bedroom has a king bed and a desk and dresser. The bathroom is large with a separate bath and shower.

The separate living room has couch and a couple if sofa chairs as well as tables and entertainment cabinet.

Overall I'm impressed with this 480 sq ft unit as it feels reasonably spacious.

No kitchen of course but I figure adding in a kitchen and dining area, and adding in more closet space while taking away some space from the living room and bedroom would mean it would translate into a 550ish square foot unit.

In fact it felt bigger than expected so I asked the front desk about the size and they confirmed the quoted 480 square feet.

My kid has some space to play and run around. Note though there are essentially no toys in the place. I was just in a friend's apt which is substantially larger and yet it feels totally cramped because a bunch of the space is needed for workspace for the two adults, and much of the rest if the space is filled up with children's toys and a crib.

So while I think a 550 sq ft condo may be fine for a couple, it's just inadequate for a family IMHO.

 

[Ex-Montreal Girl]

So I splurged on my vacation and got a 480 square foot hotel room, because aside from my wife, I also have a toddler with me.

It's a 1-bedroom suite. The bedroom has a king bed and a desk and dresser. The bathroom is large with a separate bath and shower.

The separate living room has couch and a couple if sofa chairs as well as tables and entertainment cabinet.

Overall I'm impressed with this 480 sq ft unit as it feels reasonably spacious.

No kitchen of course but I figure adding in a kitchen and dining area, and adding in more closet space while taking away some space from the living room and bedroom would mean it would translate into a 550ish square foot unit.

In fact it felt bigger than expected so I asked the front desk about the size and they confirmed the quoted 480 square feet.

My kid has some space to play and run around. Note though there are essentially no toys in the place. I was just in a friend's apt which is substantially larger and yet it feels totally cramped because a bunch of the space is needed for workspace for the two adults, and much of the rest if the space is filled up with children's toys and a crib.

So while I think a 550 sq ft condo may be fine for a couple, it's just inadequate for a family IMHO.

I would say anything less than 700 sf is inadequate.

Yesterday I visited a friend who just moved into a 2BR2BR advertised as 850 sf. They're renting for a year until they can find the perfect larger place after just having sold their house in Riverdale. The unit is east of Yonge and the building is about 10 years old. It's an easy walk to the St. Lawrence Market, a No-Frills and LCBO but the Sobey's just closed.

The kitchen is JUST adequate although I found the cupboards small and she complained that her dinner plates have to go on a bottom shelf of a bottom cupboard because the upper cupboards are too shallow and narrow. Now mind you, they unit doesn't have the nicest finishes so a reno would renovate that. The fridge is not very large so, if you have to stock up on kids' milk and such, you're outta luck.

There is a round DR table seating four, two love seats in an L and a few side pieces. Most of her stuff, which was pretty minimal anyway, is in storage or went to her grown-up kids or to charity. The TV has yet to be connected and they are at a bit of a loss as to where it should go.

There are precisely three closets. One double when you walk in, one double in the second bedroom which now holds a desk and a futon, and a small walk-in in the MBR. She keeps a vacuum cleaner in there.

The place where the washer and dryer is kept has no room for linens -- although two narrow shelves up top hold cleaning supplies -- so my friend has them in rollout bins under the queen-sized bed the MBR.

The bathrooms -- one 4 piece, one 3 piece -- are tiny and without storage.

There is no room for a dresser in either BR.

Turns out there are many young couples in the building who have started families and my friend -- who chats up everybody -- said all these young folks want to stay downtown, or as close to it as possible, because they are all refugees from the burbs and never want to return. They would prefer to cram in their strollers, kids' toys, their winter boots and clothes, electronics, etc. in these places than buy even as far out as Leaside or East Riverdale or whatever the hot hood is, assuming they could afford to do so. They like being able to walk to their jobs on Bay Street and pick up dinner at the Market.

The largest unit in the building is 975 sf -- I looked at layouts online -- and, compared to some of the newer stuff being built, they are cavernous. But still too small for some of these families and with no closet space.

I just cannot imagine. It's as if downtown Toronto has become Hong Kong real estate-wise.

The crunch is going to come.

 

[Eug]

I would say anything less than 700 sf is adequate.

Is that a typo?

As for the bedroom, one thing I did in my condo is put in cabinets over the headboard. Quite a bit of storage there.

Rollout bins under the bed is common sense in a small condo.

 

[Ex-Montreal Girl]

Yes. My bad. I fixed it.

Putting storage above the headboard is fine but I personally would be too scared it would fall on my head in the middle of the night.

 

[KA1]

I would say anything less than 700 sf is inadequate.

Turns out there are many young couples in the building who have started families and my friend -- who chats up everybody -- said all these young folks want to stay downtown, or as close to it as possible, because they are all refugees from the burbs and never want to return. They would prefer to cram in their strollers, kids' toys, their winter boots and clothes, electronics, etc. in these places than buy even as far out as Leaside or East Riverdale or whatever the hot hood is, assuming they could afford to do so. They like being able to walk to their jobs on Bay Street and pick up dinner at the Market.


I just cannot imagine. It's as if downtown Toronto has become Hong Kong real estate-wise.

The crunch is going to come.

http://www.torontolife.com/informer/features/2014/06/11/stuck-in-condoland/

 

[Ex-Montreal Girl]

http://www.torontolife.com/informer/features/2014/06/11/stuck-in-condoland/

Somewhere on this forum there's a thread titled "Family-sized Condos" or something -- where I started saying this years ago.

Maybe we jumped the big money gun by selling our house in Riverdale in 2012 and buying here. But we had an opportunity to move into a 1300 sf 3BR2BR condo, with a large balcony, in a great neighbourhood, walkable, bikeable and lots of transit, and all the amenities. Yes, the building is older -- and they don't make them like this anymore -- and the fees are high (but not per sf) but we saw the crunch coming. So, while we could made another $150K by waiting to sell our house, we are not sorry to be here now. Everybody who has moved in since us are either downsizers (who thankfully understand that older structures need upkeep), the downsizers' elderly parents (because it's a very accessible building and makes life easier for the sandwich generation) and/or some young families. We actually have babies now. Not many, but at least three when we only had one when we moved in.

 

[KA1]

. We actually have babies now. Not many, but at least three when we only had one when we moved in.

Periodically, I have been hearing and, once in a while, reading that downside of living in a condo with children is that, quite often, children have very little oportunity to socialise/play with other children.

A few years ago, I had read in The Star that in one of the buildings, in the market area, residents had taken effort to find out as to which unit owners wouldn't mind children 'trick and treating'on halloween night.

Any such type of situations in your case?

 

[greenleaf]

Periodically, I have been hearing and, once in a while, reading that downside of living in a condo with children is that, quite often, children have very little oportunity to socialise/play with other children.

A few years ago, I had read in The Star that in one of the buildings, in the market area, residents had taken effort to find out as to which unit owners wouldn't mind children 'trick and treating'on halloween night.

Any such type of situations in your case?

I don't think how often kids socialize has anything to do with their housing unit. Between school and the neighbourhood playgrounds they do just fine socializing.

My rental building had a sign up at Halloween and we did that. It was great!

 

[James]

I agree that the amount or level of socializing really has no bearing on what type of housing one lives in. It really comes down to the attitude of the individual and their willingness to socialize with others wherever they go.

I've seen many condo buildings make provisions to encourage/enable residents to socialize and interact with each other in the building more easily. Expanding on this, I can see this becoming more and more popular, with a solid dedicated team of organizers putting together get-togethers that residents and their guests want to go to. It could just be a social mixer or a fun fair of sorts and doesn't have to be really expensive or formal.

 

[Ex-Montreal Girl]

I agree that the amount or level of socializing really has no bearing on what type of housing one lives in. It really comes down to the attitude of the individual and their willingness to socialize with others wherever they go.

I've seen many condo buildings make provisions to encourage/enable residents to socialize and interact with each other in the building more easily. Expanding on this, I can see this becoming more and more popular, with a solid dedicated team of organizers putting together get-togethers that residents and their guests want to go to. It could just be a social mixer or a fun fair of sorts and doesn't have to be really expensive or formal.

In the past few years, as more and more former house owners used to having neighbourhood communities are moving in (downsizing really), we have seen the establishment of a book club, a weekly bridge and euchre night, regular fitness classes in the pool taught by residents, a gardening plus other committees. We have a Christmas party every year plus, often, another party. Our lobby is a bit of a hangout, as are our library and garden.

 

[yin_yang]

1. While one may not want to get a bigger home now, views often change with time and circumstance. EVERY one of my neighbours in my downtown condo complex moved out when they had kids. Some were less than two years in their condos because of new kids. Most stayed in the 416, but moved out of the downtown core. In fact most stayed in the pre-amalgamation Toronto, but I moved further, into Scarborough. Still in the 416 but 30 minute commute.

2. Layout makes a big difference.

3. I moved out of my 1000+ sq ft. 2-bedroom condo townhouse because I felt it was too cramped. However see #2 - some of it was stairs, so it was probably more like a 900ish sq. ft. place. Furthermore I had the luxury of buying early. I probably wouldn't have moved out as early as I did if I had bought one of the 1400-1600 sq. ft. units. Can you believe they were only $440000ish at the time (late 90s), including parking, despite being downtown?

4. If I were buying now and could only afford a 1-bedroom, I probably would try not to get anything less than 650 square feet, but that is becoming very hard for new builds, so I would be a resale guy in today's market. Or if I had to, 550 bare minimum, but that would be a huge compromise and likely as a starter condo with the intent of moving up later, and probably would make me want to move out sooner rather than later.

i'm sorry? you bought a condo in toronto in the 90s for $440k? you got ripped off, man. i got my 1300sqft condo at college and yonge for $200k in 2000. what building did you buy in?

 

[cdr108]

i'm sorry? you bought a condo in toronto in the 90s for $440k? you got ripped off, man. i got my 1300sqft condo at college and yonge for $200k in 2000. what building did you buy in?

do you live in the Lexington? not many large units like that currently !

IIRC pre-construction in dt TO (excluding Yorkville) was starting from $225-250 psf in late 1990s-2000.
850 sq ft 2 bed / 2 baths in Radio City were ~$200K.

 

[yin_yang]

do you live in the Lexington? not many large units like that currently !

IIRC pre-construction in dt TO (excluding Yorkville) was starting from $225-250 psf in late 1990s-2000.
850 sq ft 2 bed / 2 baths in Radio City were ~$200K.

yea, the lexington...

 

[W. K. Lis]

i'm sorry? you bought a condo in toronto in the 90s for $440k? you got ripped off, man. i got my 1300sqft condo at college and yonge for $200k in 2000. what building did you buy in?

Update the kitchen (and bath) along with stone counters and stainless steel appliances. That'll kick up the price a bit.