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What is the future of VIA Rail?

I have taken VIA, and I have taken Virgin Rail in England. I generally take VIA coach but last time I took VIA ONE..... VIA ONE is a joke. Take the same train configuration -- add a little more space in front (depends partly on luck whether it is a lot more space -- or just a little more. The tables are exactly the same, the chairs are still 4 across (2 / 1 across on Virgin Rail). I think they could do a lot better job for first class -- and -- increase the profitability for that part of the train. Coach will always likely be subsidized. I would not mind them privatizing it -- if Virgin takes over the route.

As far as building a system like Japan or France? First the density along the Windsor to Quebec corridor would be lower than any hi-speed train route. The system would have to be much more heavily subsidized. Japan -- has spent more than half of what our entire national debt is on building their system (270 Billion+) -- so a comparison just is not fair.

Now, where are you going to take that additional money from? Health care? Education?
 
^Well, it does not have to be a bullet train. Shaving an hour off the Montreal to Toronto/Ottawa to Toronto routes would already be a big improvement. Also, dedicated tracks for VIA would go a long way since freight priority does slow things down quite often. As I have mentioned before, the Ottawa/Toronto route, which is one I use often, is annoying because the train has to snake through a rail yard in Smith's Falls. VIA appears to be limited to using one track, and the track change is often done manually.

Your point about VIA One is true. The only way things will improve is with investment. But the corridor route is the one that has the greatest potential to be self-sustaining, attractive to more riders and ready for improvement and expansion.
 
^ What you said makes sense, and reasonably cost effective.

I have taken the Toronto/Ottawa train and it stops and sits twice..... and missing it's schedule at that.

VIA should try to innovate in first class, and try to attract business travellers. Some shots on the dark (other than making VIA ONE more attractive) -- offer "business services". Have the VIA one car be able to be "reconfigured" at one end of the car (Montreal Toronto) into a conference room (basically sound barrier that can be installed with a little notice) -- Chairs turned around -- etc. I don't know if it would sell, but if you have a small group of people going to an important meeting -- it gives a last chance to prepare before arrival. Again, I don't know if it will work -- but even if it fails -- it would probably be a marketting success to get people to see VIA in a new light.

I see no need to subsidize cross country routes though.... just between major centers.
 
^I think some of those ideas would sell. I think people would be surprised at how many business people use VIA, particularly for the shorter trips of say an hour or so. The price blows flying out of the water. It's the slow trips and constant delays that drive users crazy.

VIA tends to be so timid with innovation (and I assume cost is a part of it). VIA one is a throw-back to first class on airliners; for double the price you get someone fussing over you and some food, but you are in exactly the same type of car but with a curtain and somewhere to plug in a laptop.

Maybe they should consider leasing cars out to private companies who could tailor the services more effectively (they should actually just get new rolling stock to start). Speed up the service, reduce delays and market themselves more effectively and promote the hell out of the corridor route and I think things could greatly improve.
 
Roads are bleeding money too with all those repairs, policing, snow removal, and such.
Indeed, this is key. Somehow people always think of road-spending as "investment" while transit spending is a "subsidy." Although, it's often transit-spending that usually provides more bang for the buck.
 
Somehow people always think of road-spending as "investment" while transit spending is a "subsidy."
It is the same with any social service. Take the social service out of transit and it will quickly become an investment for government dollars.

Have an organization whose role is to have transit geared to income in a similar style as rent geared to income works.

The instant that people stop jumping up and down about increasing fares because it hurts the poor is the instant that transit becomes an investment and ironically might even increase in government funding (primarily capital).
 
GO Transit rail corridor improvements and bus purchases are touted as "investments" - maybe because its passengers are mostly suburbanites who are choice riders. After all, as I like to point out, when trying to eliminate discounts for students (perhaps amongst the only captive riders for GO), then chair Gordon Chong actually said that "transit is not a social service."
 
First the density along the Windsor to Quebec corridor would be lower than any hi-speed train route. The system would have to be much more heavily subsidized.
actually it's only the capital investment that would have to be subsidized....to the tune of several billion dollars. it's been shown that a TGV-style train on that corridor would make an operational profit.
 
"Privatization worked oh-so-well in Britain".


The UK isnt doing all that great itself.


Axe to fall on rail network
Dozens of lines may shut as ministers draw up action plan for closures. Document reveals scheme for cuts as Treasury pushes for massive cash savings
By Christian Wolmar
Published: 29 January 2006

Ministers are preparing ways of closing or "mothballing" large sections of the railway network, according to an official document which was slipped out without publicity last week.

Dozens of branch lines and secondary routes could shut, in what would be the biggest rethink of the network since the Beeching report in the 1960s, which led to the closure of 4,000 miles of railway and nearly half the nation's stations. Loss-making services would be transferred on to buses, as a means of reducing the £6bn-a-year subsidy.

An army of consultants will decide whether lines should stay open or close. A law passed last year has reduced the right of passengers to object to closures.

The 83-page consultation paper uses a new kind of cost-benefit analysis, which, experts say, will highlight the economically fragile state of the network. Such analysis often penalises trains because it fails to take into account that they are environmentally friendly. As one senior rail industry figure put it last night: "The trouble with consultants is they will do exactly what ministers want them to do."

Chris Grayling, Conservative transport spokesman, said: "This will pave the way for closures. There has been a lot of talk behind the scenes that ministers are now considering significant cutbacks. For the first time they now have the power."

Many of the most vulnerable lines run through some of Britain's most beautiful countryside. At risk could be the lines to the seaside resorts of Whitby in North Yorkshire, St Ives and Newquay in Cornwall, Sheringham in north Norfolk and Skegness in Lincolnshire. But some urban lines, such as Huddersfield to Sheffield and Walsall to Wolverhampton, could go too.

Rupert Brennan-Brown, chairman of the Friends of the Derwent Valley line, which runs between Derby and Matlock, said: "It is services like this, on which communities depend, that are in the firing line."

Roger Ford, technical editor of Modern Railways, said cutting branch lines might not be enough. "If they want to save serious money they would have to cut many regional services and possibly whole swaths of lines."

The rail system is heading for a financial crisis in the next few years, as the Treasury has demanded that current record levels of subsidy be slashed. Passengers have been forced to pay big fare increases this year as ministers hike up the premiums train companies pay to run the service. The debt of Network Rail, the not-for-profit company that runs the track, will soar to £20bn by 2008. It will need £1bn a year just to service this debt.

A separate consultants' review of railways in the North, ordered by the Department for Transport, is due to report soon and is expected to recommend saving millions in Leeds, Manchester and Newcastle by transferring subsidised rail services to buses.

The crunch will come early next year when ministers will set out a list of lines the Government is no longer prepared to subsidise, which will be accompanied by a "statement of funds available". This will mean the Government will have to decide precisely where and when the cuts will take place.

Beeching cut the number of stations from 5,000 to 2,700, and cut route miles by 4,000 to 13,000. The consultation paper revives the Beeching idea of "mothballing" lines. In practice nearly all lines mothballed in the 1960s decayed and never reopened.

Ministers are preparing ways of closing or "mothballing" large sections of the railway network, according to an official document which was slipped out without publicity last week.

Dozens of branch lines and secondary routes could shut, in what would be the biggest rethink of the network since the Beeching report in the 1960s, which led to the closure of 4,000 miles of railway and nearly half the nation's stations. Loss-making services would be transferred on to buses, as a means of reducing the £6bn-a-year subsidy.

An army of consultants will decide whether lines should stay open or close. A law passed last year has reduced the right of passengers to object to closures.

The 83-page consultation paper uses a new kind of cost-benefit analysis, which, experts say, will highlight the economically fragile state of the network. Such analysis often penalises trains because it fails to take into account that they are environmentally friendly. As one senior rail industry figure put it last night: "The trouble with consultants is they will do exactly what ministers want them to do."

Chris Grayling, Conservative transport spokesman, said: "This will pave the way for closures. There has been a lot of talk behind the scenes that ministers are now considering significant cutbacks. For the first time they now have the power."

Many of the most vulnerable lines run through some of Britain's most beautiful countryside. At risk could be the lines to the seaside resorts of Whitby in North Yorkshire, St Ives and Newquay in Cornwall, Sheringham in north Norfolk and Skegness in Lincolnshire. But some urban lines, such as Huddersfield to Sheffield and Walsall to Wolverhampton, could go too.
Rupert Brennan-Brown, chairman of the Friends of the Derwent Valley line, which runs between Derby and Matlock, said: "It is services like this, on which communities depend, that are in the firing line."

Roger Ford, technical editor of Modern Railways, said cutting branch lines might not be enough. "If they want to save serious money they would have to cut many regional services and possibly whole swaths of lines."

The rail system is heading for a financial crisis in the next few years, as the Treasury has demanded that current record levels of subsidy be slashed. Passengers have been forced to pay big fare increases this year as ministers hike up the premiums train companies pay to run the service. The debt of Network Rail, the not-for-profit company that runs the track, will soar to £20bn by 2008. It will need £1bn a year just to service this debt.

A separate consultants' review of railways in the North, ordered by the Department for Transport, is due to report soon and is expected to recommend saving millions in Leeds, Manchester and Newcastle by transferring subsidised rail services to buses.

The crunch will come early next year when ministers will set out a list of lines the Government is no longer prepared to subsidise, which will be accompanied by a "statement of funds available". This will mean the Government will have to decide precisely where and when the cuts will take place.

Beeching cut the number of stations from 5,000 to 2,700, and cut route miles by 4,000 to 13,000. The consultation paper revives the Beeching idea of "mothballing" lines. In practice nearly all lines mothballed in the 1960s decayed and never reopened.
 
"First the density along the Windsor to Quebec corridor would be lower than any hi-speed train route."

Density along the route is irrelevent if the trains are full.
 
Exactly. There's enough traffic at places like Kingston that would benefit from high speed rail. Belleville, Oshawa and even Cobourg also get healthy passenger counts. The densities along the route aren't that bad, especially west of Toronto.
 
Density along the line is irrelevant if we're talking about an express service that wouldn't stop in those places anyway. All that matters is that the destinations served are large enough. No one would claim that a plane flight between Calgary and Vancouver is infeasible due to the rocky mountains.
 
Density IS very important. If you are running a line across 500+ km and you only have two (real) locations -- your cost to build AND maintain the route go up considerably AND revenue goes down. One person travelling 500km typically generates less revenue/km than having 3 people travelling 150km each. You also want to maintain a higher number of train cars per hour on the (now) dedicated track. Simply put, all other high speed trains in the world -- run on denser routes.

No matter what the presentations have proposed so far -- all of them are likely OVERSTATING there revenue AND UNDERSTATING there revenues -- trying to get just under the wire for the government to get in and subsidize the service (hoping to come back later and say oops -- we need more). It happens with most government contracts.
 
I don't disagree with you, you're quite right. It's more of a differerence in how you state things.

"Density IS very important. If you are running a line across 500+ km and you only have two (real) locations -- your cost to build AND maintain the route go up considerably AND revenue goes down"

You're wording thigs in a comparative way, which really isn't important because things are the way they are and aren't going to change.

There wouldn't be any increase in construction or maintenance costs (in fact, they would be lower if passing through less-populated areas).

If we are talking about an expess service that won't be stopping along the route it really doesn't matter as long as the two destinations are large enough to maintain the service. The big differnce that you seem to be making is how many stops would the train be making anyway?

"One person travelling 500km typically generates less revenue/km than having 3 people travelling 150km each."

Only if those three people are sharing the same seat (filling it at different points along the route). If they're all heading to the same final destination it wouldn't be so.

"You also want to maintain a higher number of train cars per hour on the (now) dedicated track."

How does this matter? You seem to be thinking backwards. Just because stops are added along the line how would that make it so that FEWER train cars would have to be run?

"Simply put, all other high speed trains in the world -- run on denser routes."

You gotta watch statements like that. Ever ridden the HSR trains in Sweden? Half of Eurostar Chunnel trains run non-stop, how does density along the line matter for those trains? Density is not important, what is important is demand. This is an express HSR line, not a subway line.
 
cdl42,

Just a quick question. Having never been on the the train you mention in your last point, how does the ticket pricing compare to VIA along its corridor route?
 

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