Waterloo Region Transit Developments (ION LRT, new terminal, GRT buses)

[sixrings]

My point is that most of those services had poor ridership at times they ran such low frequencies.

You will drive riders away whenever you reduce service. We have ample hard evidence for that.

I did not suggest it was the apocalypse. I stated as fact that its poor, and that it will drive away ridership. You don't have to care. But please don't defend bad policy choices.

I get what you’re saying but we could just do 8 minutes all day service. People would love that. Then they would pay their taxes and there would be an uproar. And that’s how things work. We both know that.

Surely they know this will reduce usage but they are ok with it. And I’m going to assume it’s to save money.

I guess you’re saying we should always aim for the best. Which case I too would agree. And am actually ok with those tax increases. But I don’t think the general public is and I’m guessing the politicians think the same way.

Finally I guess I have some biases about what people should expect from their transit. Especially in regards to where the transit is. This isn’t an urban utopia we’re talking about. But we talk on here as if every part of the country which has a good portion of people should be livable without a car. Maybe if you walk everywhere but from past transit decisions I just think that’s unrealistic if we can’t even get the subway to open early on Sundays in Toronto.

 

[ZEBuilder]

A question for you and others here more familiar w/ K-W than I...........

The existing ION is a north-south spine of Rapid Transit for the area, broadly in line w/how the community (ies) are shaped by the Grand.

That said, do you (or anyone else) think there is case for any kind of East-West spine, above and beyond GO?

If so, where would one put that to serve existing/future density/jobs?

I looked at a few spots on aerial (Victoria, Queen, etc.) but couldn't settle on a clear candidate and whether its even a worthwhile idea in the medium term.

as ericmacm said above that is the only map that has ever been published in regards to future lines. I will note though that the route for Stage 2 no longer looks exactly like it does on that map and it has been adjusted to serve a slightly different area but roughly the same corridor.

Now in terms of a future East/West spine the region is definitely considering it, however it is any entirely different corridor than where a future LRT phase 3 would go on the map from 2018. In ROPA 6 (Regional Official Plan Amendment 6) there is provisions for a future East/West LRT along Ottawa St (one of the main arterials). In ROPA 6 it says the following "As part of the next update to the Region’s Transportation Master Plan, the Region, in collaboration with the area municipalities, will examine the potential for establishing a new ION rapid transit route along the east-west Regional Intensification Corridor shown on Map 2 that would: (i) provide a direct link from the Region’s transit system to the Region of Waterloo International Airport; and (ii) serve as a key transit corridor connecting the west side of the City of Kitchener to the East Side Lands Employment Area in the Township of Woolwich, and City of Cambridge via the Fountain Street corridor." Here's the map referring to that corridor (the North/South Corridor is the existing LRT/Phase 2, East/West is a potential future LRT).

 

[ZEBuilder]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1718084324832981126

From the 2024 Waterloo Region Budget Review (Budget is not finalized yet),

Some optimization of LRT service by "rebalancing" frequencies. Overall, they may still add 1,900 hours of LRT service in 2024 (not necessarily a lot).

* Frequency increased to 10 min from 7am to 8pm in the summer
* Frequency increased to 8 min from 7am to 8pm during non-summer
* Frequency decreased from 15 min to 30 min from 5am to 7am and 8pm to midnight.

While, it's great that they're adding some net service, 30min frequency is horrible for the LRT. They need to maintain a reasonable level of service even if there's not as much ridership.

They also use the explanation of Bus Route #7 complementing the frequency during this off peak time, when they don't need the capacity. How reasonable is this explanation?

Public Input Meeting #2 - Nov 1, 2023
Public Input Meeting #3 - Nov 29, 2023

Budget and Financial Statements

The Region of Waterloo's annual budget material is available online. This includes budget books, issue papers, agendas, minutes and presentations. Also annual Regional financial statements.

www.regionofwaterloo.ca

The transit portion starts at 2:13:00

https://www.youtube.com/live/3g8EhYtZ6fE?t=7980

Being from Kitchener I'm more than pleased with the increase in frequency during peak hours but the removal of service in the evenings is absolutely atrocious. While I don't have any actual data on the number of riders on the LRT after 8pm I do have anecdotal evidence. I take the LRT to get home from work and that means I'm riding on the LRT after 9pm and it is still surprisingly busy, now that it is getting dark out earlier it is starting to die down a bit but if they were to cut 2 trains like they're planning the two remaining trains would be effectively full, after 10pm ridership falls off a cliff so 30 minutes then makes a bit more sense but between 8 and 10 it should still have reasonable service not 30 minutes. The problem with 30 minutes is the LRT is really the backbone of the system, everything funnels to the LRT so if you work somewhere more suburban and take a bus to get to the station you can count on only waiting 15 minutes for the next train which is completely reasonable but waiting 30 minutes late at night like they're planning is pretty ridiculous all things considered. Yes KW isn't Toronto in terms of transit usage but the only way transit usage is going to increase like the region wants is if they don't kill the potential of the system.

The 7 being an alternative to the LRT is complete bs to put it nicely again I take the LRT home from my shifts so I've taken it past the University area hundreds of times and the amount of people getting on the LRT at about 10pm up there is honestly surprising, during the weekend it is even worse, there could easily be a full bus just of the university students. The other problem is the 7 really doesn't interline with the LRT in many places, sure in Uptown Waterloo it does and same thing with Downtown Kitchener, but Mill, Block Line, Laurier-Waterloo Park, University of Waterloo, Northfield all are far from where the 7 runs so it effectively cuts off anyone who would otherwise be able to take the LRT.

 

[jys]

Some optimization of LRT service by "rebalancing" frequencies. Overall, they may still add 1,900 hours of LRT service in 2024 (not necessarily a lot).

* Frequency increased to 10 min from 7am to 8pm in the summer
* Frequency increased to 8 min from 7am to 8pm during non-summer
* Frequency decreased from 15 min to 30 min from 5am to 7am and 8pm to midnight.

While, it's great that they're adding some net service, 30min frequency is horrible for the LRT. They need to maintain a reasonable level of service even if there's not as much ridership.

The transit portion starts at 2:13:00

https://www.youtube.com/live/3g8EhYtZ6fE?t=7980

Just watched the video. It appears that they've hit the ceiling of the service hours allowed in the contract with the LRT operator (GrandLinq). So to increase service during the day, they must cut service elsewhere.

 

[ZEBuilder]

Just watched the video. It appears that they've hit the ceiling of the service hours allowed in the contract with the LRT operator (GrandLinq). So to increase service during the day, they must cut service elsewhere.

They can always renegotiate the contract, not to pick on the police budget but they ask for millions more every year and get it, there is no reason the LRT cannot have similar increases in funding. They constantly want people to use transit, yet are getting rid of reliable service in the evenings when many people run errands, go for dinner, movies etc which just results in people to not use it. Not to mention all the people who work irregular shifts getting ignored. I take the LRT numerous times a week and the difference between 8 and 10 minute headways during the day won't make much of a difference, sure the trains are packed but its not to the point where people are left at stops, changing from 8 to 10 minute headways is just an extra train and a half an hour, which ultimately won't do much in the grand scheme of things. The removal of evening service is going to be horrendous during the week but especially on weekends, the university which is arguably one of the biggest trips generators doesn't have any realistic alternatives to go north/south, the region seems to believe the 7 is except many stations aren't close to it, UW station is one of those.

If anything a reduction to 20 minutes at most in the evenings is reasonable, there does not need to be 8 minute service from 7-8pm or even mid day, sure at peak times it might make sense but 10 minute service is reasonable for much of the day. As much as GRT wants to make everyone believe demand isn't peaked there is still noticeable differences in usage when you take it at different times of day, from about 7-10 there is a lot of university, highschool and 9-5 commuters, and from 4-7 in the evening its similar, but from 10-4 there is substantial usage but the trains are not packed like they are during rush hour. Really the region shouldn't be cutting service at all (the region refuses to call it this but it is cuts regardless of how they phrase it).

 

[sixrings]

Just watched the video. It appears that they've hit the ceiling of the service hours allowed in the contract with the LRT operator (GrandLinq). So to increase service during the day, they must cut service elsewhere.

So they don’t want to pay more. Exactly what I thought.

 

[ZEBuilder]

So they don’t want to pay more. Exactly what I thought.

That is exactly what it is, they spent nearly a billion dollars on the system and now that's it's getting used they are wanting to change the existing headways without changing how much they're paying which in turn results in cuts to service, then the inevitable spiral of no ones using public transit so we should cut service more starts to happen.

This is basically what happened for route 2 this past summer. The region didn't want to pay for it because it was a low revenue route however they proceeded to ignore the fact that for the entire existence of the route since it was rerouted in June of 2019 (the entire system got changed to feed into the LRT) it was affected by various different things, covid dropped ridership and roads along the route were under construction for the vast majority of the routes life, so of course it wasn't being used. The public ended up throwing a fit (rightfully so) and managed to get half the route saved. Here's hoping the same thing happens with these cuts, I know some regional councillors are on Reddit and the discussion over there about it are primarily calling it a dumb idea so hopefully it doesn't actually happen.

 

[allengeorge]

Frequency decreased from 15 min to 30 min from 5am to 7am and 8pm to midnight.

What’s the rationale for this change? Is it driven by budgetary concerns? Lack of operators? Low ridership? Why those times?

I’m very reluctant to see 30 minute service from 8PM - midnight. That part I’d like to see rolled back at least.

I am less invested in the AM hours, though whenever possible I’d like to see frequencies that don’t exceed 15 minutes. 30 minutes is a very long wait in a Waterloo winter.

EDIT: oh, they don’t want to pay more? Garbage. How much would maintaining the service levels cost in per-person property tax increase?

 

[ZEBuilder]

What’s the rationale for this change? Is it driven by budgetary concerns? Lack of operators? Low ridership? Why those times?

I’m very reluctant to see 30 minute service from 8PM - midnight. That part I’d like to see rolled back at least.

I am less invested in the AM hours, though whenever possible I’d like to see frequencies that don’t exceed 15 minutes. 30 minutes is a very long wait in a Waterloo winter.

EDIT: oh, they don’t want to pay more? Garbage. How much would maintaining the service levels cost in per-person property tax increase?

The rational for change in service levels from 5am-7am and 8pm-midnight is there is more demand throughout the day (record levels on the LRT and busses), ridership of the LRT went from roughly 14k rides a day up to 22k a day in September and hasn't come down yet. what they want to do to because of this increase in demand is to increase 7am-8pm frequencies from 10 minutes to 8 minutes and in turn sacrifice service all other times of day to be every 30 minutes. This way they don't have to renegotiate the contract with Keolis/Grandlinq since the maximum number of operating hours is exceeded if they keep 15 minutes from 5am-7am and 8pm-midnight.

If they maintained existing service which is still plenty sufficient for the LRT (existing bus service not so much) it wouldn't cost a dime more, instead they want to add just under 2000 hours of LRT service, which wouldn't cost much considering it's already in the contract that's signed with Keolis. However those increased hours are only from 7am-8pm, but in order to not have to renegotiate the contract they're going to sacrifice service levels from 8pm to midnight and before 7am. Instead of just maintaining the status quo which works fine right now.

 

[Dan416]

I'm from Mississauga so 30-minute frequency is pretty common on many routes. It's not the end of the world, but for the backbone of the system it really sounds pretty bad. Hopefully they can find the money to at least maintain 20 minute service levels. Even 20 minutes is a heck of a lot better than 30 minutes. When I'm taking the GO train in the evening and it's a 30 minute gap to the next one it feels like a loooong time.

 

[anb]

I'm from Mississauga so 30-minute frequency is pretty common on many routes. It's not the end of the world, but for the backbone of the system it really sounds pretty bad. Hopefully they can find the money to at least maintain 20 minute service levels. Even 20 minutes is a heck of a lot better than 30 minutes. When I'm taking the GO train in the evening and it's a 30 minute gap to the next one it feels like a loooong time.

Well a weak backbone for specific transit agencies are pretty common here in the GTA. Look at 501 Zum Queen especially on weekends, Viva Blue drops to 20 min service at night, and the DRT 900 Pulse I believe used to run its full Scarborough-Durham run at least every 15 mins now its a terrible 30 min all day. Hopefully GRT does do something completely different from the others and actually fix those 30 min gaps.

 

[drum118]

Why spend all that money on an LRT when service is 30 minutes when you can run 10-15 minutes with an express bus or local??

To save a buck for building the LRT line, they take riders on a tour than a short trip between X-Y that would generate more ridership.

 

[KevinT]

Apparently we saved a dandy here in the region:

aroundtheregion.ca | Vintage GRT bus getting a Hollywood makeover

Edit to add: Picture yoinked from the associated Facebook post, as the article didn't have it without text overlayed.

 

[Sunnyside]

Why spend all that money on an LRT when service is 30 minutes when you can run 10-15 minutes with an express bus or local??

To save a buck for building the LRT line, they take riders on a tour than a short trip between X-Y that would generate more ridership.

GRT is a funny duck. On the one hand I am usually floored at the frequency they can run, and when they do it’s amazing. The iON is packed, buses are packed, I don’t even have to check schedules most of the time. But there’s always a moment where things just don’t add up and it breaks the illusion of a near-perfect system. This latest debacle is piling on evidence that the top brass doesn’t know how exactly to respond to massive demand growth. They got 80% of the way, but now they’re making tradeoffs that will set them back more than it will keep them going.

Take this example. The bus I use the most now, the express 202, is wonderful during the day, but after 6pm frequency goes from 10 mins peak/15 off-peak to 30 minutes. We can certainly question if full service is always needed along the entire route, but I’ve never seen such a cut off anywhere. Demand is crushing routes citywide, too, not just around UW/WLU- and Conestoga’s diploma milling is not helping. In short, they need to find more service hours, and fast. This reshuffling is not going to work.

Worse still, this is the only city I’ve been to where I can confidently say night service is clearly becoming necessary, too… talk about suffering from success.

 

[ZEBuilder]

GRT is a funny duck. On the one hand I am usually floored at the frequency they can run, and when they do it’s amazing. The iON is packed, buses are packed, I don’t even have to check schedules most of the time. But there’s always a moment where things just don’t add up and it breaks the illusion of a near-perfect system. This latest debacle is piling on evidence that the top brass doesn’t know how exactly to respond to massive demand growth. They got 80% of the way, but now they’re making tradeoffs that will set them back more than it will keep them going.

Take this example. The bus I use the most now, the express 202, is wonderful during the day, but after 6pm frequency goes from 10 mins peak/15 off-peak to 30 minutes. We can certainly question if full service is always needed along the entire route, but I’ve never seen such a cut off anywhere. Demand is crushing routes citywide, too, not just around UW/WLU- and Conestoga’s diploma milling is not helping. In short, they need to find more service hours, and fast. This reshuffling is not going to work.

Worse still, this is the only city I’ve been to where I can confidently say night service is clearly becoming necessary, too… talk about suffering from success.

The one thing that GRT does have going for them is they do know how to expand and provide decent service coverage to the vast majority of the urban areas in the city, most areas have bus service every 30 minutes, obviously 15 minutes is ideal but that isn't the reality unfortunately, the exceptions are the newer subdivisions but once they get built GRT tends to put a route into them (look at doon for an example).

The top brass have never had a clue how to not screw things up, they tried removing route 2 without public consultation and that backfired horrendously. Now they're trying to get rid of late night and early morning LRT service without any public consultation, I'm someone who relies on it because I work some pretty abnormal shifts and there's many other people using it in the same situation just look at reddit and see for yourself.

Sure they can try justifying it by saying route 7 is an option but the problem is route 7 sucks, it doesn't go near half the stations that have the most demand (both the stations by the universities) so they're just disregarding an entire population that uses the system. The reality of it is it's just frustrating because the staff still seem to think 9-5 is the only shift. If these changes actually happen I doubt we'll see any other useful changes until the existing operating contract expires (another 5 years iirc). This is just part of the unfortunate reality of public transit in KWC.