Waterloo Region Transit Developments (ION LRT, new terminal, GRT buses)

[nfitz]

I see there is anger that the province is letting Mississauga weasel out of contributing to their LRT when KW put up nearly a quarter of a billion.

I'm not sure which post you are referring to.

Waterloo is in the driver's seat for their LRT, unlike Mississauga and Toronto which will only get built when the province feels like it. In 2009 the province committed to compete the Eglinton LRT from Kennedy to Pearson Airport with service starting in 2016, the Finch LRT from Don Mills Road to Humber College by 2013, and the Sheppard East LRT to Meadowvale Road by 2013.

In the years since, the province has consistently reneged and delayed this work. Even while David Miller was still Mayor the Liberals had significantly delayed and shortened the lines.

Region of Waterloo however is getting what they want, when they wanted it.

 

[Markster]

I see there is anger that the province is letting Mississauga weasel out of contributing to their LRT when KW put up nearly a quarter of a billion.

Absolutely.
http://www.therecord.com/news-story...t-provincial-budget-despite-transit-concerns/

"Our community has already invested significantly in developing 21st century infrastructure by paying one third of the light rail transit system through property taxes, while others are getting 100 per cent funding from the province."

Seiling said the region already asked the province to explain the disparity.

"These are two municipalities (Mississauga and Brampton) that are certainly not in difficulty financially," Seiling said.

And anyone goes pointing out that Mississauga is raising taxes, there's a difference between fixing previous financial largesse (0% tax increases are never sustainable), and financial difficulty (look at Detroit for that).

What we're doing now is parlaying that into trying to push for greater support of Phase 2 into Cambridge:

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/provinc...of-lrt-extension-to-cambridge-wynne-1.2342143

This year, the region is beginning an environmental assessment on the second phase of light rail transit, which will see trains run between Kitchener and Cambridge.

“It puts us in a position to be serious about asking for funding … for a project that is essentially shovel-ready at that point,” Galloway said.

In an interview with CTV News, Premier Kathleen Wynne indicated it was possible the province would pick up a larger share of the tab for that project.

How does the Hurontario LRT compare to the Waterloo LRT in terms of ridership projections?

I'd guess Hurontario would have a stronger case since the population (and I'd think density) of Peel Region is much higher than Waterloo Region.

Job wise I'd think Mississauga would win as well, despite Waterloo's tech sector.

You are welcome to compare them:
Hurontario LRT Benefits Case, and Business Case
Waterloo LRT Waterloo Multiple Account Evaluation, and Business Case

 

[Platform 27]

What we're doing now is parlaying that into trying to push for greater support of Phase 2 into Cambridge:

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/provinc...of-lrt-extension-to-cambridge-wynne-1.2342143

This year, the region is beginning an environmental assessment on the second phase of light rail transit, which will see trains run between Kitchener and Cambridge.

“It puts us in a position to be serious about asking for funding … for a project that is essentially shovel-ready at that point,” Galloway said.

In an interview with CTV News, Premier Kathleen Wynne indicated it was possible the province would pick up a larger share of the tab for that project.

Not pointing fingers at anyone in this thread, but I find it frustrating how continuously uncritical Waterloo Region transit advocates have been when it's come to the merit of an LRT extension to Cambridge.

I challenge anyone to convince me that converting the planned BRT to Cambridge into an LRT makes any sense from a value for money perspective. This is 100% a case of Scarboroughsubwayitis... "poor neglected area y deserves what spoiled elitist area x has".

Ridership demand south of Fairview Park Mall is a fraction of the K-W segment's, and there's every reason to believe that the "adapted BRT" that's being proposed will offer adequate capacity for many, many decades to come. The potential hundreds of million of dollars that a Cambridge LRT project would soak up would provide next to no real benefits to transit riders compared to the 2017 status quo, and could almost certainly be better spent on any number of other initiatives in Waterloo Region that would.

And yet, nary a peep out of the oodles of planning and engineering types that populate WR's transit advocacy community. They're this silent consensus that Cambridge should be next, which is really disappointing. I get why the political leaders would see the world through that lens, but it's depressing that this likely white elephant is going unchallenged because, vrooom, vrooom, LRTs are cool.

 

[P0per]

More photo updates from construction.

Crews have started laying ballast, though still over the original Waterloo Spur rails and ties. Lots of progress on the maintenance facility and King street is still a mess due to utility relocations.

Untitled by ION Construction, on Flickr

Untitled by ION Construction, on Flickr

Untitled by ION Construction, on Flickr

Untitled by ION Construction, on Flickr

Untitled by ION Construction, on Flickr

Untitled by ION Construction, on Flickr




More from today at Flickr

 

[doady]

I see there is anger that the province is letting Mississauga weasel out of contributing to their LRT when KW put up nearly a quarter of a billion.

Waterloo wasn't affected as much by the provincial downloading of transit costs since the 90s compared to Mississauga. It's a much smaller system now and it was even smaller in the 90s. GRT has caught up but the ridership per capita is still lower than Mississauga even today. Plus, Mississauga already spent over $100 million on their BRT.

Likewise, Toronto has been more affected by downloading more than any other Ontario city and in addition has already spent probably like $1 billion for Sheppard subway, YUS extension, St. Clair since then. So it's not surprising they don't have another $2 billion for Eglinton Crosstown line.

 

[mpd618]

I challenge anyone to convince me that converting the planned BRT to Cambridge into an LRT makes any sense from a value for money perspective. This is 100% a case of Scarboroughsubwayitis... "poor neglected area y deserves what spoiled elitist area x has".

Ridership demand south of Fairview Park Mall is a fraction of the K-W segment's, and there's every reason to believe that the "adapted BRT" that's being proposed will offer adequate capacity for many, many decades to come. The potential hundreds of million of dollars that a Cambridge LRT project would soak up would provide next to no real benefits to transit riders compared to the 2017 status quo, and could almost certainly be better spent on any number of other initiatives in Waterloo Region that would.

The uneasy political role of Cambridge within the Region of Waterloo is a factor for sure. But if you think that ION is primarily a transit project, you are sorely mistaken. It has always been first and foremost about helping to guide development to occur in Waterloo Region's central urban spine - while the Region also severely restricts greenfield growth. And so judging the merits of such a project on the basis of its current value as transit is a bit silly. This, incidentally, is a big reason the planned Cambridge alignment is along Hespeler Road rather than Coronation Boulevard: it offers huge redevelopment opportunity.

In addition, one of the reasons transit ridership is lower in Cambridge is the historically low levels of transit service under Cambridge Transit. Transit quality and use has grown by leaps and bounds since Grand River Transit took over from Kitchener Transit and Cambridge Transit in 2000. Apparently Cambridge is responding to better service - it is seeing much higher ridership growth than the system as a whole (see page 197 here): 20% growth in two years.

 

[Duck]

I didn't quite realize that was the reasoning behind the Hwy. 24 alignment vs. Coronation. Every time I drive down Coronation, I think "this would be perfect for transit and it would look like Europe. Why did they choose ugly 24?!" Your reasoning makes sense. I guess I can get on board with that!

What I can't visualize is how it will go across Eagle. That rode is unbelievably tight as it is.

 

[Markster]

Not pointing fingers at anyone in this thread, but I find it frustrating how continuously uncritical Waterloo Region transit advocates have been when it's come to the merit of an LRT extension to Cambridge.

I challenge anyone to convince me that converting the planned BRT to Cambridge into an LRT makes any sense from a value for money perspective. This is 100% a case of Scarboroughsubwayitis... "poor neglected area y deserves what spoiled elitist area x has".

As mpd618 says, there are ulterior motives around LRT, not least of which is binding the region together much more cohesively.

Cambridge is a fascinating case of contrasts to Scarborough.

The Mayor of Cambridge was one of the biggest opponents of LRT.
The Mayor's position is quite clear, that even he thinks LRT in Cambridge is overkill:

Cambridge Mayor Doug Craig would be dismayed if there's no federal cash to help pay for trains, assuming Cambridge has enough passengers. "I'm concerned about empty trains running up and down Cambridge," he said.

Hidden further behind that statement is a belief that Waterloo Region as a whole is going to be running empty trains.
Unlike Scarborough that deserves subways, Cambridge was more of the opinion that Waterloo Region doesn't need LRT, and hell if Cambridge is going to be paying for something we don't need, and to add insult to injury, Cambridge doesn't get!

So we have a curious situation where the spoiled elitist area x (Waterloo/Kitchener) is actually doing the championing of LRT in poor neglected area y (Cambridge).

Of course, this isn't to say that 100% of Cambridge residents are anti-LRT, but they've had every right to be concerned with paying for phase 1 and not receiving the same benefits. I suspect that once LRT is up and running in KW, we'll start to see Cambridge pushing for extension.

 

[Allandale25]

Are they going to upgrade the jointed rail with welded rail? The LRT will use the existing track (which is used by freight right now) and they are building a second one, correct?

More photo updates from construction.

Crews have started laying ballast, though still over the original Waterloo Spur rails and ties. Lots of progress on the maintenance facility and King street is still a mess due to utility relocations.

Untitled by ION Construction, on Flickr

More from today at Flickr

 

[Duck]

All track will be new/upgraded. The old track with joined rails and wooden sleepers will be gone.

I think they are doing gauntlet track through the stations.

 

[BMO]

Absolutely.
http://www.therecord.com/news-story...t-provincial-budget-despite-transit-concerns/

And anyone goes pointing out that Mississauga is raising taxes, there's a difference between fixing previous financial largesse (0% tax increases are never sustainable), and financial difficulty (look at Detroit for that).

What we're doing now is parlaying that into trying to push for greater support of Phase 2 into Cambridge:

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/provinc...of-lrt-extension-to-cambridge-wynne-1.2342143



You are welcome to compare them:
Hurontario LRT Benefits Case, and Business Case
Waterloo LRT Waterloo Multiple Account Evaluation, and Business Case

Just be happy Waterloo doesn't border Toronto otherwise you'd have people complaining about how it should stop at the border, before entering waterloo. We gotta take our wins where we can get em. At least Toronto's negligence helped get cheaper LRTs for KW I believe right?

 

[BMO]

The uneasy political role of Cambridge within the Region of Waterloo is a factor for sure. But if you think that ION is primarily a transit project, you are sorely mistaken. It has always been first and foremost about helping to guide development to occur in Waterloo Region's central urban spine - while the Region also severely restricts greenfield growth. And so judging the merits of such a project on the basis of its current value as transit is a bit silly. This, incidentally, is a big reason the planned Cambridge alignment is along Hespeler Road rather than Coronation Boulevard: it offers huge redevelopment opportunity.

In addition, one of the reasons transit ridership is lower in Cambridge is the historically low levels of transit service under Cambridge Transit. Transit quality and use has grown by leaps and bounds since Grand River Transit took over from Kitchener Transit and Cambridge Transit in 2000. Apparently Cambridge is responding to better service - it is seeing much higher ridership growth than the system as a whole (see page 197 here): 20% growth in two years.

This. We often get so caught up in the numbers and we forget that transit/ transportation is such a transformative force. Sometimes transit lines don't need to be packed 24/7 to provide a return on investment through other externalities.

 

[BMO]

All track will be new/upgraded. The old track with joined rails and wooden sleepers will be gone.

I think they are doing gauntlet track through the stations.

I can't find any information on it, but will the old train that used to do tours from the Perimeter Institute on Erb all the way to St Jacob's still run after this or is it getting moved somewhere else?

 

[Markster]

I can't find any information on it, but will the old train that used to do tours from the Perimeter Institute on Erb all the way to St Jacob's still run after this or is it getting moved somewhere else?

It's departure point is moving up to Northfield & Parkside, and it will change to regular runs between there and Elmira. (As opposed to the usual current terminus of St. Jacob's)
http://waterloocentralrailway.com/lrt-impact/

 

[BMO]

It's departure point is moving up to Northfield & Parkside, and it will change to regular runs between there and Elmira. (As opposed to the usual current terminus of St. Jacob's)
http://waterloocentralrailway.com/lrt-impact/

cheers thanks!