Waterfront Transit Reset Phase 1 Study

[ARG1]

With how the TTC is operating the Finch West LRT, i think we should just build a BRT for this line and get it built within a year.
an LRT would just be a waste of billion of dollars for worst service (Slower and less frequent).

Even in the worst case scenerio, an LRT here is frankly fine. What makes Finch West a problem is that its suburban - operating in an environment where speeds are extremely important and you need to travel several kilometres to reach anywhere useful. This isn't the case for a downtown LRT like this one. Obviously it should ideally be faster like 17-19km/h, but a slow line isn't the end of the world, and the capacity for the portlands will be important.

 

[Obsidian]

I don't see how spending 3 billion would be worth it since a BRT would be faster and come more frequent. lets spend the few transit dollars we have for higher order transit like expanding the Ontario or Sheppard line.

 

[ARG1]

I don't see how spending 3 billion would be worth it since a BRT would be faster and come more frequent. lets spend the few transit dollars we have for higher order transit like expanding the Ontario or Sheppard line.

The LRT would be able to make use of the facilities and provide a direct connection to Union Station, and handle the heavy capacity that the network would require for the redevelopment of the portlands. Like this is the prime example of an area where investing the extra into LRT would actually make a lot of sense especially in the long term where we will have branches to various parts of the Portlands and connections to other streetcars like Cherry, Parliament, and Broadview.

 

[Obsidian]

The LRT would be able to make use of the facilities and provide a direct connection to Union Station, and handle the heavy capacity that the network would require for the redevelopment of the portlands. Like this is the prime example of an area where investing the extra into LRT would actually make a lot of sense especially in the long term where we will have branches to various parts of the Portlands and connections to other streetcars like Cherry, Parliament, and Broadview.

With all the turns you would need to service the docklands, an LRT will be slow as hell. you can route the BRT to one of a half dozen location besides Union for passengers to access Union quickly. I think putting a stop to access the Bay street teamway would work well as a BRT stop. Just this and we save 3 billion

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There is one thing the TTC does better than almost every other transit system and that's Buses, we should aim to improve their Bus netowrk.

 

[DSCToronto]

With all the turns you would need to service the docklands, an LRT will be slow as hell. you can route the BRT to one of a half dozen location besides Union for passengers to access Union quickly. I think putting a stop to access the Bay street teamway would work well as a BRT stop. Just this and we save 3 billion

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There is one thing the TTC does better than almost every other transit system and that's Buses, we should aim to improve their Bus netowrk.

I think your comments might be more valuable if you looked at the MANY studies of the LRT and the reasons why it was seen as being clearly better to have an LRT and not buses.

 

[Obsidian]

I think your comments might be more valuable if you looked at the MANY studies of the LRT and the reasons why it was seen as being clearly better to have an LRT and not buses.

Well how many studies were done for the Finch LRT and look at the states of it now.
If the TTC is running the waterfront LRT its operations are going to be subpar, might as well save a lot of money and time and just go with BRT now.

 

[urbanclient]

Well how many studies were done for the Finch LRT and look at the states of it now.
If the TTC is running the waterfront LRT its operations are going to be subpar, might as well save a lot of money and time and just go with BRT now.

When I saw maps like these dated March 2024 and earlier, I mistakenly assumed the line would be around 7 km. (I was mistaken, it was around 5.3 km as of 2024 afaik)

Instead this piece of sh** project has been descoped down to 3.8 km. At which point, why even bother.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, this would be by far the shortest streetcar route in the city. By the time the city stops faffing
about, the window for comparatively cheap streetcar construction would be over, as that industrial area gets converted to
residential and commercial before a single shovel is in the ground for Waterfront East LRT.

And you already know the City was going to have this line run in mixed-traffic.

Might as well paint a couple of bus lanes and call it a day.

Source for descoping down to 3.8 km: https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2025/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-252828.pdf

 

[Northern Light]

When I saw maps like these dated March 2024 and earlier, I mistakenly assumed the line would be around 7 km. (I was mistaken, it was around 5.3 km as of 2024 afaik)

Instead this POS project has been descoped down to 3.8 km. At which point, why even bother.

The terminus of the line, as currently proposed is an interim location until further development occurs.

In the most rapid of scenarios, there is very little reason to extend a working line south towards Polson, or east towards Leslie, there simply isn't the projected demand.

In respect of the closer section where the interim build would reach, the proposed densities will push any LRT to its limits if build out and are really better suited to subway, one we have positioned too far north
to properly service this community.

That said BRT would be wholly inadequate.

The proposals here, would see a create deal more than 3.8km of track built at full build out.

You'll have a line going up the Broadvew extension to Queen; an eastward extension to Leslie, and a southerly extension to Polson, or even Unwin.

Lets be honest, the latter of these are decades out; with only Broadview realistic before 2036, and it might well be later.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, this would be by far the shortest streetcar route in the city. By the time the city stops faffing
about, the window for comparatively cheap streetcar construction would be over, as that industrial area gets converted to
residential and commercial before a single shovel is in the ground for Waterfront East LRT.

And you already know the City was going to have this line run in mixed-traffic.

Which line was going to operate in mixed traffic?

Might as well paint a couple of bus lanes and call it a day.

Not workable. You'd have to halt the entire portlands plan (which the market is certainly going to delay) ....but bus lanes will never serve the imagined density needs here. As noted above, even LRT will be challenged to do so.

Also we do have the physical ROW on Cherry built. Just needs rails, and catenary

 

[DSCToronto]

When I saw maps like these dated March 2024 and earlier, I mistakenly assumed the line would be around 7 km. (I was mistaken, it was around 5.3 km as of 2024 afaik)

View attachment 701780

Instead this piece of sh** project has been descoped down to 3.8 km. At which point, why even bother.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, this would be by far the shortest streetcar route in the city. By the time the city stops faffing
about, the window for comparatively cheap streetcar construction would be over, as that industrial area gets converted to
residential and commercial before a single shovel is in the ground for Waterfront East LRT.

And you already know the City was going to have this line run in mixed-traffic.

Might as well paint a couple of bus lanes and call it a day.
View attachment 701782

Source for descoping down to 3.8 km: https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2025/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-252828.pdf

The initial plan was to end the line at QQE & Parliament but the current plan is for a longer line to be built in sections - which has both advantages and disadvantages. These sections are Union Station to QQE - this is the underground section and is being designed by TTC. This is the most complicated section as it involves major work to expand the loop under Union. The second is a surface section running on QQE to Cherry Street (east of Parliament) and the next is a section going down Cherry and across the Keating bridge to Commissioners plus a link to the Cherry St line - this is being designed by Waterfront Toronto and is almost at the fully designed level. Though the underpass at Cherry is still not finalised. The City are currently doing physical construction on QQE near Parliament Slip as 'pre-works'. The 'final' section is not yet planned but would continue east along Commissioners to Leslie Barns - this needs a new bridge over the Don but would provide a detour route to get cars to/from the Barns. This piece MAY happen in the 2040s.

Has all this taken too long? You bet it has but it DOES make sense to plan in pieces and it seems that, at last, the City and WT are at the point of having the $$ and actually building it from Bay to Cherry (or to the temporary loop between Parliament & Cherry). They continue to agitate for $$ to do the Union to QQE leg and at the most recent meetings were as optimistic as I have ever seen them.

 

[urbanclient]

I will touch on this topic later. For some reason, a lot of contributors appear to underestimate how much capacity a BRT can have. Not that it's necessarily the right pick for Waterfront East, Finch West, Dufferin etc... now or in the future.

[In response to me advocating for painted bus lanes a la Dufferin]
Not workable. You'd have to halt the entire portlands plan (which the market is certainly going to delay) ....but bus lanes will never serve the imagined density needs here. As noted above, even LRT will be challenged to do so.

Also we do have the physical ROW on Cherry built. Just needs rails, and catenary

I would also be very surprised if WELRT turns out to have not a single metre of track shared with cars (outside of intersections).

 

[KhalilHeron]

Instead this piece of sh** project has been descoped down to 3.8 km. At which point, why even bother.

Lol when this happen. The document you site for descoping the project also projects 50k trips a day which is more than almost every streetcar line (seems a little excesive to me but no doubt the ridership will be high). At full build uot this will be one of the densest corridors in the country and even with a fraction of that population today the busses are already overcrowded. Seems like there are many reasons to bother.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, this would be by far the shortest streetcar route in the city.

Harbourfront streetcar is a little longer at 4.4 km, but its about 3.6km between Union and the start of exhibition loop.
There are also future plans to extend to line up broadview and commissioners but lets wait and see if this gets built first.

And you already know the City was going to have this line run in mixed-traffic.

Google earth is free and can show you that there is already a separate right of way preserved on Cherry and Commissioners, with designs for the whole line public.

Might as well paint a couple of bus lanes and call it a day.
View attachment 701782

Do you mean the bus lanes that already opened this June? Be so fr

 

[Obsidian]

Lol when this happen. The document you site for descoping the project also projects 50k trips a day which is more than almost every streetcar line (seems a little excesive to me but no doubt the ridership will be high). At full build uot this will be one of the densest corridors in the country and even with a fraction of that population today the busses are already overcrowded. Seems like there are many reasons to bother.

Harbourfront streetcar is a little longer at 4.4 km, but its about 3.6km between Union and the start of exhibition loop.
There are also future plans to extend to line up broadview and commissioners but lets wait and see if this gets built first.

Google earth is free and can show you that there is already a separate right of way preserved on Cherry and Commissioners, with designs for the whole line public.
View attachment 701804

Do you mean the bus lanes that already opened this June? Be so fr
View attachment 701806View attachment 701805

So we are half way there it seems, just extend the busway to the port lands and use the LRT bridges and call it a day

 

[DSCToronto]

So we are half way there it seems, just extend the busway to the port lands and use the LRT bridges and call it a day

A bus service cannot cope with the expected level of demand and even today buses get stuck on Bay Street en route to Union. The LRT is really the best long-term solution - it is just 'unfortunate' that it has all taken so long to get started!