Waterfront Transit Reset Phase 1 Study

[GameOnBrad]

Waterfront Toronto will also be hosting an Open House event on October 23 from 5:30pm-8:00pm. More information is available here.

Here is their latest facebook post about 30 minutes ago that reveals more of what to expect:

Waterfront East Transit is set to connect communities across East Bayfront, the Lower Don Lands and the Port Lands.

At the Waterfront East Transit booth, you’ll have the opportunity to:

Check out the plans for new infrastructure and an expanded transportation network serving an area that will house an estimated 100,000 residents

Learn about enabling and early works underway now to set the groundwork for the new transit system, and how we’re working to improve service today

Chat with the project team, ask questions, and be part of the conversation

Join us for Waterfront Toronto’s Open House and learn about how we’re connecting communities today and for the future.

Where: T3 Bayside, 10th Floor – 251 Queens Quay East
When: Wednesday, October 23 from 5:30 pm to 8:00 pm
Event Type: Drop-In

 

[Jeff Morgan]

Check out the plans for new infrastructure and an expanded transportation network serving an area that will house an estimated 100,000 residents

Learn about enabling and early works underway now to set the groundwork for the new transit system, and how we’re working to improve service today

Chat with the project team, ask questions, and be part of the conversation

So if I'm reading this correctly there seems to be nothing new.

 

[Amare]

Here is their latest facebook post about 30 minutes ago that reveals more of what to expect:

Waterfront East Transit is set to connect communities across East Bayfront, the Lower Don Lands and the Port Lands.

At the Waterfront East Transit booth, you’ll have the opportunity to:

Check out the plans for new infrastructure and an expanded transportation network serving an area that will house an estimated 100,000 residents

Learn about enabling and early works underway now to set the groundwork for the new transit system, and how we’re working to improve service today

Chat with the project team, ask questions, and be part of the conversation

Join us for Waterfront Toronto’s Open House and learn about how we’re connecting communities today and for the future.

Where: T3 Bayside, 10th Floor – 251 Queens Quay East
When: Wednesday, October 23 from 5:30 pm to 8:00 pm
Event Type: Drop-In

Sounds like one big ol' waste of time to me!

Unless one is interested in learning about fantasies and what deep hypnosis is all about.

 

[DSCToronto]

Sounds like one big ol' waste of time to me!

Unless one is interested in learning about fantasies and what deep hypnosis is all about.

Yes, having been to meetings on it for almost 20 years I am not hopeful we will get much new. The problem is that the line needs to get to Union and the section from QQ to Union is the most complicated and costly. To add to it, the TTC is in charge of that segment.

 

[drum118]

Yes, having been to meetings on it for almost 20 years I am not hopeful we will get much new. The problem is that the line needs to get to Union and the section from QQ to Union is the most complicated and costly. To add to it, the TTC is in charge of that segment.

Opening 2050 now because of TTC

 

[drum118]

Did anyone go to Thursday Night public meeting for QQE as I love to hear the comments before I post mine??

 

[Jeff Morgan]

Did anyone go to Thursday Night public meeting for QQE as I love to hear the comments before I post mine??

There are a few comments about the event on the Quayside forum.

 

[drum118]

Oct 23
Totally a joke for QQE and more on it later on as there is another white elephant in the picture.

Some quotes from Quayside forum.

By DSCToronto
The work going on now at QQE and Small Street (See @GameOnBrad photos above) is (partly) for the LRT as it will provide source of traction power. See: https://secure.toronto.ca/council/agenda-item.do?item=2025.EX25.3 The work on Cherry and Commissioners saw the transit bridge built over the Keating and the empty ROW for the streetcars on east side of Cherry and the south side of Commissioners. WT are certainly trying to avoid having to dig up anything again for LRT.

By Start Fox
To echo the above re: the QQE LRT, they stated that 60% design would be complete July 2026, with construction starting in 2026 (I think? maybe misremembering that part) and service starting "early 2030s". They certainly seemed to hint that government funding was coming in 2026 during the presentation, and I also talked to a WT employee and they were coy but seemed to agree. They also said some of the work going on for Quayside infrastructure right now actually has work for the QQE LRT being done as well, so that it doesn't need to be torn up again.

By Diablo1983
Furthermore, given all 3 levels of government fund WT and all 3 levels of government fund transit (historically), why wasn’t WT just given the money to do the whole thing in the first place so that it’s done as communities like Bayside came online vs forcing people to be stuck in traffic or sub-par transit options for more than a decade before any glimpse of hope? Transit needs to go in as these communities are built - not the other way around. Look at what happens when a transit line goes in - all of the developers start building around them the moment they are announced - the funding model has it backwards.

 

[drum118]

Behind close doors at TTC Meeting Next week. One can say the east-west connection will be built first. Current report is to go to council in Q2 2026 for next step.

• Waterfront East LRT (WELRT) – The WELRT is another of the City’s Priority Transit Projects. The TTC led the planning and design work for Segment 1 of this project (Union Station to Queens Quay) and is supporting the City and Waterfront Toronto for the ongoing design work for Segment 2 and Segment 3.

Waterfront East LRT (WELRT)

The TTC’s 2025-2034 Capital Budget and Plan only includes funds for the Preliminary Design and Engineering (PDE) phase (30% Design) of the WELRT Segment 1 component of the project. The total approved budget for the TTC’s current scope of work for the WELRT project is $27 million, of which approximately $23.2 million has been spent to date.

City Council approved the report, Advancing Waterfront East Light Rail Transit, on November 8, 2023, advancing the 60% Design for the WELRT project along Queens Quay East, from Yonge Street to Villiers Loop by Waterfront Toronto; this includes all Segments 2 and 3 components as well as the Yonge Street Infill and Queens Quay East Extension early works. The report did not include any additional funds to advance WELRT Segment 1 to be delivered by the TTC.

The TTC is currently not advancing the scope of work for the Segment 1 component, which provides the required capacity and operational improvements to the Union Station Loop, pending further funding commitment and approval, as the procurement strategy for Segment 1 will require full funding commitment for this segment to proceed.

Segments 2 and 3 are currently in 60% Design, and include the reconstruction of Queens Quay East to accommodate a streetcar right-of-way, and new infrastructure on Ookwemin Minising. The City has retained a consultant to identify the construction phasing of WELRT and interdependencies with other nearby projects, such as Gardiner reconstruction, and determine the next step to progress Segments 2 and 3 to construction.

The Interim Chief Financial Officer has reviewed this report and agrees with the financial impact information.

 

[DSCToronto]

Behind close doors at TTC Meeting Next week. One can say the east-west connection will be built first. Current report is to go to council in Q2 2026 for next step.

• Waterfront East LRT (WELRT) – The WELRT is another of the City’s Priority Transit Projects. The TTC led the planning and design work for Segment 1 of this project (Union Station to Queens Quay) and is supporting the City and Waterfront Toronto for the ongoing design work for Segment 2 and Segment 3.

Waterfront East LRT (WELRT)

The TTC’s 2025-2034 Capital Budget and Plan only includes funds for the Preliminary Design and Engineering (PDE) phase (30% Design) of the WELRT Segment 1 component of the project. The total approved budget for the TTC’s current scope of work for the WELRT project is $27 million, of which approximately $23.2 million has been spent to date.

City Council approved the report, Advancing Waterfront East Light Rail Transit, on November 8, 2023, advancing the 60% Design for the WELRT project along Queens Quay East, from Yonge Street to Villiers Loop by Waterfront Toronto; this includes all Segments 2 and 3 components as well as the Yonge Street Infill and Queens Quay East Extension early works. The report did not include any additional funds to advance WELRT Segment 1 to be delivered by the TTC.

The TTC is currently not advancing the scope of work for the Segment 1 component, which provides the required capacity and operational improvements to the Union Station Loop, pending further funding commitment and approval, as the procurement strategy for Segment 1 will require full funding commitment for this segment to proceed.

Segments 2 and 3 are currently in 60% Design, and include the reconstruction of Queens Quay East to accommodate a streetcar right-of-way, and new infrastructure on Ookwemin Minising. The City has retained a consultant to identify the construction phasing of WELRT and interdependencies with other nearby projects, such as Gardiner reconstruction, and determine the next step to progress Segments 2 and 3 to construction.

The Interim Chief Financial Officer has reviewed this report and agrees with the financial impact information.

Yes, there is little doubt that the eastern extension of the LRT will happen first, the big question is how they will deal with the junction at Bay. Will they run the extension straight through and simply close the line from QQE to Union until it can be improved/expanded or will they retain the link - maybe for streetcars going to or coming from the west only.

. There is also the question of how far east will it go. Will they stop at Parliament, will they stop at Cherry or will they go all the way to Commissioners? Will they make the north south link through the rail berm on Cherry so that the eastern line would also connect to the 504? The answers will depend on ow much money they can get! At the Open House they had map in which the new line along QQE was called the 519 - for those who may care.

 

[drum118]

Yes, there is little doubt that the eastern extension of the LRT will happen first, the big question is how they will deal with the junction at Bay. Will they run the extension straight through and simply close the line from QQE to Union until it can be improved/expanded or will they retain the link - maybe for streetcars going to or coming from the west only.

. There is also the question of how far east will it go. Will they stop at Parliament, will they stop at Cherry or will they go all the way to Commissioners? Will they make the north south link through the rail berm on Cherry so that the eastern line would also connect to the 504? The answers will depend on ow much money they can get! At the Open House they had map in which the new line along QQE was called the 519 - for those who may care.

I still say you built the wye at the tunnel and close the tunnel off until funds can be found to do the loop.

There is funding coming in 2026 from the Fed's and the next 10 years for TTC but how much of that money will work its way down to QQE???

With the hybrid Gardner now a new white elphant for the line and supposed to open in 2030/31 now, the city is looking at using the QQ as part of the overflow when traffic is move to the Lake Shore while the new section is being built as well tearing down the current structure. Then there is the building of the new Lake Shore. Since there is no QQ east of Jarvis the new QQE could be built with the ROW on day one. Once the new extension opens before 2030, it not going to help the Lake Shore mess as eastbound traffic still has to get to the Lake Shore to get to the Don Roadway to use the DVP ramp. Traffic will be backup from Cherry St to the Don Roadway for the left turn to the DVP ramp.

Some people say why not built the Cherry St Line to Commissioner first as the map fail to point out that Metrolinx doesn't want work at the loop area and the embankment ubtil the OL portal and work is completed around 2031

Starting in 2027, Waterfront Toronto will start the Infrastructure work as well build the new roads for the island and expecting to see new residents in 2031/35.

Then there is the filling in the Yonge Slip that must be done first before the Bay portal work can start that doen't have a date at this time.

Concerns were raised how QQ would be built and I see it been done as QQW was done. You built the south side first inclunding the ROW and then then move the single lane of traffic in both direction from the westbound traffic lanes onto the ROW while the north side is being rebuild including the new single lanes traffic lanes like the west section..

TTC could start building the trackwork west starting at the Don River as it will be the easy part since the ROW already exist other than the loop area that needs the new streets in place. Building the wye at Cherry and the new QQ will have some issues. From Cherry St to Jarvis will be straing forward since QQ doesn't exist today there and no traffic interference as well. Once the Yonge Slip is built with the new road to the hotel, TTC can start work on the portal starting just east of Bay to allow Union Loop to remain in service until the QQE trackwork reaches the portal area, Once that happens, TTC can close the loop and stop the 509 and 510 at Spadina Loop for 6-9 months to cpmplete the rest of the portal as well rebuilt the existing one for the wye connection, Once that is done, you start the 519 service as an east-west line,

There is a report going to Council Q2 2026 on phasing and next step which is after the 2026 City budget approval stage.

 

[DSCToronto]

I still say you built the wye at the tunnel and close the tunnel off until funds can be found to do the loop.

There is funding coming in 2026 from the Fed's and the next 10 years for TTC but how much of that money will work its way down to QQE???

With the hybrid Gardner now a new white elphant for the line and supposed to open in 2030/31 now, the city is looking at using the QQ as part of the overflow when traffic is move to the Lake Shore while the new section is being built as well tearing down the current structure. Then there is the building of the new Lake Shore. Since there is no QQ east of Jarvis the new QQE could be built with the ROW on day one. Once the new extension opens before 2030, it not going to help the Lake Shore mess as eastbound traffic still has to get to the Lake Shore to get to the Don Roadway to use the DVP ramp. Traffic will be backup from Cherry St to the Don Roadway for the left turn to the DVP ramp.

Some people say why not built the Cherry St Line to Commissioner first as the map fail to point out that Metrolinx doesn't want work at the loop area and the embankment ubtil the OL portal and work is completed around 2031

Starting in 2027, Waterfront Toronto will start the Infrastructure work as well build the new roads for the island and expecting to see new residents in 2031/35.

Then there is the filling in the Yonge Slip that must be done first before the Bay portal work can start that doen't have a date at this time.

Concerns were raised how QQ would be built and I see it been done as QQW was done. You built the south side first inclunding the ROW and then then move the single lane of traffic in both direction from the westbound traffic lanes onto the ROW while the north side is being rebuild including the new single lanes traffic lanes like the west section..

TTC could start building the trackwork west starting at the Don River as it will be the easy part since the ROW already exist other than the loop area that needs the new streets in place. Building the wye at Cherry and the new QQ will have some issues. From Cherry St to Jarvis will be straing forward since QQ doesn't exist today there and no traffic interference as well. Once the Yonge Slip is built with the new road to the hotel, TTC can start work on the portal starting just east of Bay to allow Union Loop to remain in service until the QQE trackwork reaches the portal area, Once that happens, TTC can close the loop and stop the 509 and 510 at Spadina Loop for 6-9 months to cpmplete the rest of the portal as well rebuilt the existing one for the wye connection, Once that is done, you start the 519 service as an east-west line,

There is a report going to Council Q2 2026 on phasing and next step which is after the 2026 City budget approval stage.

You say: "Since there is no QQ east of Jarvis the new QQE" This is not correct. QQ currently runs as far east as Parliament.

On the new opening through the rail berm at Cherry Street. This will be costly and complicated and I wonder if they could manage perfectly well with a single track controlled by traffic lights. The number of streetcars going through the berm will never be huge and I have seen short stretches of single line track on (normally) two way streets in Europe - at least one in Amsterdam. TTC always hold out for 'the perfect' (e.g. separate track in ROW) but this is sometimes too expensive or impossible.

 

[drum118]

You say: "Since there is no QQ east of Jarvis the new QQE" This is not correct. QQ currently runs as far east as Parliament.

On the new opening through the rail berm at Cherry Street. This will be costly and complicated and I wonder if they could manage perfectly well with a single track controlled by traffic lights. The number of streetcars going through the berm will never be huge and I have seen short stretches of single line track on (normally) two way streets in Europe - at least one in Amsterdam. TTC always hold out for 'the perfect' (e.g. separate track in ROW) but this is sometimes too expensive or impossible.

That is real dumb of me to say Jarvis when it should have been Parliament.

We knew during the EA for the Cherry Line in 2008 that taking the line south of the plan loop was going to be expensive depending on the 3 options at the time as well how the corridor look then.

Option 1: Lower Cherry St to allow the line to go under the overpass using the northbound traffic lanes with single lane for both direction using the southbound lanes. There was an option to leave the sidewalks as is with cycles either using the road in mix traffic or punch a hole on both side of the road for cycles and pedestrians. This is dead now.

Option 2: Was to buld a new underpass for the line and leave Cherry St as plan. This is still alive.

Option 3: To replace the exiisting underpass with a new wider one to have the Cherry Line on the east side with cycling lanes, wider sidewalk and traffic lanes as proposed. Would be a 2 phase construction process with Cherry St close to build the new bridge. Doing this would also deal with the thought of a Cherry St GO Station. This is currently dead at this time but ML will have to replace the existing bridge at some point down the line..

Since 2008 to 2025 the rail corridor is not close to what we saw in 2008 as well the idea of the cherry St Station been dropped,

There is 3 option to deal with the new underpass fot the line.
Option 1: Dig and build the new underpass with GO trains moving slowly over the work area that will be the cheapests of the 3 options.

Option 2: Build a new bridge off site in 2 sections with one section been move into postion over a long weekend with some trackwork not been ready on the next normal day for service. The seond section will follow on another long weekend and be done like the first section. I have no idea what the tracks and switches look like where the new bridge for tine is to go to do this.

Option 3: You build a push box on the north side and push it into postion over time and no idea what the corridor look like for the area to do this

 

[drum118]

You say: "Since there is no QQ east of Jarvis the new QQE" This is not correct. QQ currently runs as far east as Parliament.

On the new opening through the rail berm at Cherry Street. This will be costly and complicated and I wonder if they could manage perfectly well with a single track controlled by traffic lights. The number of streetcars going through the berm will never be huge and I have seen short stretches of single line track on (normally) two way streets in Europe - at least one in Amsterdam. TTC always hold out for 'the perfect' (e.g. separate track in ROW) but this is sometimes too expensive or impossible.

The lines you see as single line in Europe as well in Tampa FL on on 2 ways roads has to do with ridership as well not having lanes in 2 way roads along with headways. Tampa FL has passing sidings at each station or close to it with 15 minute service where Cherry will see 5-10 minutes service. Some Europe systems as well in the US run service on one street one way and the other on a different street for various reasons. Some Europe systems run service in both directions on the one track as there is no room to add a second line as well headways are more than 15 minutes due to ridersip.

There is very little cost saving as well time saving going to a single track for the embankment using traffic lights when TTC cannot maintain correct spacing and scheduling today that you can have a backup of cars either in one direction or both that becomes a pinch point for the system.

It has been said from day one the Cherry Street extensions opens a door to a number of different type of service especially when things are taking place at the Ex as well when the the line gets extended to Dufferin Loop as well to Humber Bay/Park Law Loops when it happen after 2030-50.

Any idea of a loop at Parliament that was to be in place back in 2014 is dead. It would have made things simpler now if the line had open in 2014 as plan as well the street fully redevlope.

 

[DSCToronto]

Not to get too excited, but the speculation that The Hub may be 'stirring' again (SEE: https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threa...oxford-properties-rogers-stirk-harbour.18067/) has implications for the Waterfront LRT.

When the first CIBC tower (45 Bay) was built, they had to put in some additional space in their basement to allow the tunnel to be widened or the platform to be longer. SEE: https://secure.toronto.ca/council/agenda-item.do?item=2015.TE10.68 and https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2015/te/bgrd/backgroundfile-83173.pdf

TE10.68 - 45 Bay Street - Council Authority to Exercise Option for Construction of Future East Bayfront LRT Station Platform​

Decision Type: ACTION
Status: Adopted
Ward: 28 - Toronto Centre-Rosedale

City Council Decision​

City Council on September 30, October 1 and 2, 2015, adopted the following:

I think the idea is to put the same conditions into any Zoning approval for The Hub which would mean there would be some non-City space and $$ available for the section of the Bay Street tunnel rebuild between the rail berm and Harbour Street.