News   Dec 08, 2021
 121     0 
News   Dec 07, 2021
 1K     1 
News   Dec 07, 2021
 432     0 

Waterfront Transit Reset Phase 1 Study

How should Toronto connect the East and West arms of the planned waterfront transit with downtown?

  • Expand the existing Union loop

    Votes: 164 73.5%
  • Build a Western terminus

    Votes: 9 4.0%
  • Route service along Queen's Quay with pedestrian/cycle/bus connection to Union

    Votes: 23 10.3%
  • Connect using existing Queen's Quay/Union Loop and via King Street

    Votes: 12 5.4%
  • Other

    Votes: 15 6.7%

  • Total voters
    223

W. K. Lis

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Messages
20,768
Reaction score
10,556
Location
Toronto, ON, CAN, Terra, Sol, Milky Way
That was not my point, dormant grass is ugly, there are more sustainable alternatives to grass.
There is, but the letter of law powers-that-be don't want it.

From 2019...

'It breaks my heart to do it': Toronto homeowner ordered to remove fake grass

From link.

...

risks a $1400 fine if she doesn't comply with bylaw notice​


A Toronto woman wants a city bylaw changed to allow homeowners to use artificial turf in their front yards.

Sangeeta Gounder and her husband had synthetic grass professionally installed in the front and back of their property three years ago.

She says it was a "great investment."

"It was getting very difficult to keep a green, weed-free lawn," Gounder told CBC Toronto outside her home in Scarborough.

The couple will soon be reverting to real grass after receiving a violation notice in May.

A Toronto bylaw dictates that a "minimum of 75 per cent of the front yard must be soft landscaping."

Artificial turf is considered a hard surface.

"I was shocked," Gounder says. "The kids play on it, the dogs play on it."
goudner-house.jpg


Bylaw only enforced after complaint​


Gounder received the bylaw infraction notice after someone complained to the city, which says it only investigates when a call is made to 311.

"The bylaw officer told me it was purely a reactive situation," Gounder says.

"I've never actually encountered anybody who didn't like our lawn, so it was surprising to us that someone would complain."
The city even gave her a "Beautiful Front Lawn Garden Award" last year.

It's unknown how often complaints about artificial turf are lodged. The city doesn't have a specific category for them.

"Someone could potentially call and it could be captured under property standards or a zoning related complaint. Both trigger an investigation," said city spokesperson Lyne Kyle.
violation-notice.jpg

Sangeeta Gounder received the notice a year after being given a “Beautiful Front Yard Garden Award” from her local city councillor.

Gounder says that when she inquired about the violation, the bylaw officer told her the city was "concerned about drainage."

"I didn't think that would be a problem. There's two feet of drainage under our turf, because it was professionally installed," she says.

But the city tells us artificial turf "does not absorb water as fast as it would through natural ground cover" and can increase flooding risks after heavy rainfall or snow melts.

Gounder says the bylaw officer also told her artificial grass "is permitted in back lawns but not in the front because it is displeasing to the eye."

While she understands that sentiment when it comes to older iterations of artificial turf, the product installed on her property "is a different breed," she says.

"The technology has come so far."

'It should be widely used'​


Karen Stintz, a former city councillor and current chief executive of Variety Village, has a personal connection to the issue.

She was ordered to remove her artificial turf in 2015, after she had already put her house up for sale.

Stintz never did, and the city never followed up.

She says she wants the bylaw to be changed.
karen-stintz.jpg

Former city councillor Karen Stintz had artificial turf in her front yard for 15 years before receiving a violation notice in 2015, shortly after putting her house up for sale.
"[Artificial turf] should be widely used and accepted," she says. "I don't understand why the city would consider artificial grass to be hard surface. It's water permeable. It's not a paved surface like asphalt."

Stintz pushed city hall to change the bylaw when she was a councillor but was unsuccessful.

"I know it continues to be widely utilized even across local [business improvement areas] and in the city boulevard, so it's unclear why the city is choosing to go after homeowners."

Not worth the fight, homeowner says​


Homeowners who opt for artificial turf run the risk of a $1,400 fine.

Gounder says she initially planned on fighting the infraction, but instead decided to comply with the bylaw.

To have the case heard, she would need to go before the city's committee of adjustment, which would cost about $1,800.

"If one person on that panel disagrees, we would lose our claim and that money as well."

So later this summer, she will be replacing her front lawn with grass.

"Although it breaks my heart to do it," she says, "the city's bylaw has kind of made it very hard for us."

"I think there is better fish to fry in the city."
 

EnviroTO

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Apr 22, 2007
Messages
4,353
Reaction score
1,182
Location
Yonge & Mt.Pleasant
You would think the artificial turf would be banned more from the perspective that it is environmentally unsound (i.e potentially non-biodegradable, negative impact to carbon capture, etc.). Although I am curious what the reaction would be to a yard full of plastic trees, artificial plants, and maybe an animatronic squirrel.
 

robmausser

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
3,545
Reaction score
5,120
You would think the artificial turf would be banned more from the perspective that it is environmentally unsound (i.e potentially non-biodegradable, negative impact to carbon capture, etc.). Although I am curious what the reaction would be to a yard full of plastic trees, artificial plants, and maybe an animatronic squirrel.

Artificial turf is WAY better for the environment than a real grass lawn. Real grass lawns produce more co2 than they take back, by FAR, due to the maintenence and water treatment, not to mention the immense water waste which is causing huge water issues in places like California (not so much an issue here, but we do water our lawns with treated water) Ontop of that people pour pesticides and fertilizers on them which leech into the ground water.

Grass lawns are terrible for the environment. Full stop.

Ontop of that an artificial lawn can be made out of recycled plastic.

Even if you used non treated grey water and electric lawnmowers etc on a real lawn it still has a worse co2 offset than an artificial turf lawn. Those tiny blades you keep cutting short barely capture any co2 at all. Its useless as a co2 capture method.
 

Northern Light

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
May 20, 2007
Messages
15,771
Reaction score
32,557
Location
Toronto/EY
Artificial turf is WAY better for the environment than a real grass lawn. Real grass lawns produce more co2 than they take back, by FAR, due to the maintenence and water treatment, not to mention the water waste.

Grass lawns are terrible for the environment. Full stop.

Ontop of that an artificial lawn can be made out of recycled plastic.

That series of statements is somewhat problematic.

Yes, real grass can have drawbacks environmentally; though it certainly depends on your local climate and how you choose to maintain it; as well as what we're comparing it to.

Additionally, artificial grass has some very serious environmental issues. Notably, it contributes nothing to wildlife habitat, including insects and pollinators, and the birds that feed on same.
But there are also issues w/microplastics getting into the environment as the product deteriorates over time.

*****

The ideal standard is a natural garden of native plants, including grasses, which you don't mow, or treat chemically.

After that, a manicured garden of perennials (both native and non-native) would rank second, providing none of the plants are invasive, and that there is no chemical treatment or excessive watering.

Following that, I would rank grass (as in sod) as next, our climate, so long as people understand how to grow it in a responsible way. Letting the grass grow longer (at least 10cm) will allow it be much more drought-resistant.
Further, using the correct variety of grass for your lawn (some are meant to withstand some shade, some require full sun, others are more or less drought-tolerant) will reduce watering requirements and the need for weeding.

I would rank artificial grass, subject to it being designed to permit permeability of water to soil after that, and ahead of a hard surface such as paving/concrete/or impermeable brick.

*****

Now, if you've got a high property that water drains away from, full-sun everywhere etc, its unlikely that grass would be a reasonable choice.

Its most certainly completely irresponsible in natural desert areas like Southern California, Arizona, Nevada and parts of Texas where it simply can't be sustained without massive intervention.

****

A good article here from The Guardian:


*****

In respect of LRT ROW, it will really depend on what type of grass/sod they select, and what maintenance strategy they employ.

They could also choose something like sedum instead.
 

drum118

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
17,245
Reaction score
13,553
Location
Mississauga, where cars rule city growth
TTC has already has artificial grass on St Clair ROW at the stops and there are a few other places with it, but can't recall where at this time..

Then there are sport fields and playgrounds
 

robmausser

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
3,545
Reaction score
5,120
That series of statements is somewhat problematic.

Yes, real grass can have drawbacks environmentally; though it certainly depends on your local climate and how you choose to maintain it; as well as what we're comparing it to.

Additionally, artificial grass has some very serious environmental issues. Notably, it contributes nothing to wildlife habitat, including insects and pollinators, and the birds that feed on same.
But there are also issues w/microplastics getting into the environment as the product deteriorates over time.

*****

The ideal standard is a natural garden of native plants, including grasses, which you don't mow, or treat chemically.

After that, a manicured garden of perennials (both native and non-native) would rank second, providing none of the plants are invasive, and that there is no chemical treatment or excessive watering.

Following that, I would rank grass (as in sod) as next, our climate, so long as people understand how to grow it in a responsible way. Letting the grass grow longer (at least 10cm) will allow it be much more drought-resistant.
Further, using the correct variety of grass for your lawn (some are meant to withstand some shade, some require full sun, others are more or less drought-tolerant) will reduce watering requirements and the need for weeding.

I would rank artificial grass, subject to it being designed to permit permeability of water to soil after that, and ahead of a hard surface such as paving/concrete/or impermeable brick.

*****

Now, if you've got a high property that water drains away from, full-sun everywhere etc, its unlikely that grass would be a reasonable choice.

Its most certainly completely irresponsible in natural desert areas like Southern California, Arizona, Nevada and parts of Texas where it simply can't be sustained without massive intervention.

****

A good article here from The Guardian:


*****

In respect of LRT ROW, it will really depend on what type of grass/sod they select, and what maintenance strategy they employ.

They could also choose something like sedum instead.

 

Northern Light

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
May 20, 2007
Messages
15,771
Reaction score
32,557
Location
Toronto/EY

That link more or less agrees with what I said...........

The preference is to avoid lawns entirely in arid areas.
If you want them in other locations, reduce or eliminate chemical inputs, mowing, and watering.
Check your soil-type (as this helps inform what plants and grasses will do best)
Naturalize and/or grow vegetables!

What it does not advocate for is artificial turf as a preferred option.

***

When one looks at the comments below, someone responded to a question about artificial turf. They gave a decent answer.

1630005204107.png
 

W. K. Lis

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Dec 24, 2007
Messages
20,768
Reaction score
10,556
Location
Toronto, ON, CAN, Terra, Sol, Milky Way
That link more or less agrees with what I said...........

The preference is to avoid lawns entirely in arid areas.
If you want them in other locations, reduce or eliminate chemical inputs, mowing, and watering.
Check your soil-type (as this helps inform what plants and grasses will do best)
Naturalize and/or grow vegetables!

What it does not advocate for is artificial turf as a preferred option.

***

When one looks at the comments below, someone responded to a question about artificial turf. They gave a decent answer.

View attachment 344202
Don't think athletics would want to use streetcar or light rail tracks for their purposes.
 

drum118

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
17,245
Reaction score
13,553
Location
Mississauga, where cars rule city growth
Sept 3
While shooting the area around the Cherry St Loop, I came upon a report on the interlock tower and had a real look at the area.

The interlock tower is going under renovation as part of this REPORT. As I stated before, I have no issue leaving the tower where it is now and the report backups the position of TTC and the city for leaving it there.

Based on the plan to rebuilt part of the Gardiner, the plan for developing the land next to the loop, the rail corridor expansion and the building the Ontario Line, I can see why the plan was change from taking the QQE extension to Cherry St Loop to Polson Loop. Trying to build the QQE to the loop will be a major issue for everyone in this area and it would push the opening of the line down the road than in place opening ASP. Regardless of the delay of building the extension to the current loop, it needs to happen within a few years of the opening of the Polson Loop and when some of the other construction is done. 2030-32 should be the opening date for the extension to the current loop.
51428456200_95e557d010_b.jpg

51428456070_0c4d6970ea_b.jpg

51427722598_1ace49b4cc_b.jpg

51427480161_9e6665d23e_b.jpg

51427481016_ba61c67083_b.jpg

51426727622_7d7473ea31_b.jpg

51428458260_b83087d9d9_b.jpg

51427483036_38e70ac9b3_b.jpg

51426729112_1eef7f8be0_b.jpg
 

dowlingm

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
May 7, 2007
Messages
3,781
Reaction score
1,620
Sept 3
While shooting the area around the Cherry St Loop, I came upon a report on the interlock tower and had a real look at the area.

The interlock tower is going under renovation as part of this REPORT. As I stated before, I have no issue leaving the tower where it is now and the report backups the position of TTC and the city for leaving it there.
1631031734911.png
1631031802968.png

1631031842027.png
 

DSC

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
Jan 13, 2008
Messages
13,946
Reaction score
12,390
Location
St Lawrence Market Area
Minor update on this in September CEO Report:

Waterfront Transit Network– Waterfront East Streetcar The Waterfront East project is part of the Council-approved Waterfront Transit plan. It will expand the streetcar network along Queens Quay East to Cherry Street to serve the East Bayfront and Port Lands neighbourhoods, replacing and supplanting existing bus services, while providing sufficient additional capacity for the projected increase in ridership from the developing areas. The project requires the reconstruction of Union (streetcar loop) and Queens Quay Stations to support ridership growth and the addition of new service to the east. The project is a collaborative effort between TTC, City of Toronto and Waterfront Toronto. Under the overall coordination of the City staff, the Transit Network Expansion Update Page 12 of 14 TTC is carrying out the planning and design work for the section including Union and Queens Quay stations, while Waterfront Toronto is doing the work for the surface section of the project, east of Bay Street. The project is currently preparing Stage Gate 3 deliverables.

Report coming Q4 2021.
 

Northern Light

Superstar
Member Bio
Joined
May 20, 2007
Messages
15,771
Reaction score
32,557
Location
Toronto/EY

Top