Waterfront Transit Reset Phase 1 Study

[allengeorge]

There was one person in the Waterfront LRT chat yesterday that advocated for 10ft walls between cyclists, pedestrians and cars to ensure everyone stayed in their own lane.

[sigh]

 

[allengeorge]

Anyways, to echo what drum said: concerns around infilling slips, loading and unloading cars, water taxis (I’d no idea so many people used them?!)

Someone advocated for just waiting a little while longer. Someone else said that maybe we wouldn’t need changes given that leasing of current buildings may be slow...

I feel like staff have to have the patience of saints to be at those consultations.

 

[drum118]

Anyways, to echo what drum said: concerns around infilling slips, loading and unloading cars, water taxis (I’d no idea so many people used them?!)

Someone advocated for just waiting a little while longer. Someone else said that maybe we wouldn’t need changes given that leasing of current buildings may be slow...

I feel like staff have to have the patience of saints to be at those consultations.

The numbers for Islands users are small during the winter and they have the options to take vehicles to/from the Islands at a cost. The summer numbers will be a few 100's since a number of water taxis will be use by victors than use the ferry.

At the end of the day, less than 3% less use the water taxis or to drop stuff off and that pushing it. There is an area on the east side of the hotel now that will still be there with this infill to allow for large items to be delivery to the Island or small things.

I know a number of the team since 2004 and they have a hard time biting their tongue from saying what they really want to say at these meetings. This applies to others meetings not by Waterfront Toronto or the city or not related to transit.

Anyway, best for folks to send in comments regardless what it is, as more in put from the public, the faster we will see this line built as well changes for the better.

 

[drum118]

Personally, I find the new Queens Quay West to be clunky and confusing. To drive and even to walk. I've seen a couple cyclists come close to colliding with pedestrians, because they don't realize they're standing in a bike lane.

Only a couple?? Seen far too many and a lot caused by speeding cycles.

The MGT needs a paint job 100% to stand out that this not a pedestrian walkway.

Very common to see ppl standing on the MGT and having a conversation. Intersections are the worse of all locations not only for cycles, but TTC.

I hope the lesson learn from this phase will improve upon for the next phase that this phase gets a make over at intersection after a few years has been in service. I would like to see how the new changes work first before improving on the existing phase as there maybe more better ideas that will work for the existing phase.

 

[44 North]

QQE was to see the same thing when the plan was approved in 2010, but with various changes.

As a note, TTC has objected to the side ROW and prefer the centre of the road ROW from day one for both QQW/QQE and Cherry St. TTC has always wanted some type of barrier between the MGT and the streetcar. I do agree on this, but not what TTC wanted

I also think some type of barrier should be considered. Nothing obtrusive or crazy, and it can be intermittent still allowing permeability. But some kind of delineating impediment...perhaps ditto for the bike path. It's obviously nice to have open woonerf style streetscapes. However this is the centre trunk of a transit corridor, and it gets busy on summer days.

 

[FC_]

Wow, my goodness, I know we're all probably generally more interested in the LRT but I just want to call special attention to these shots from Steve's blog regarding the Martin Goodman Trail and cyclist/pedestrian separation:

Are my eyes deceiving me, or did the City/WFT actually LEARN something from the mess that is QQW? 5cm grade change with a curb separating the MGT from the sidewalk, asphalt MGT continuing right up to the roadway at intersections instead of turning into a "mixing zone" with the same reddish brick as the sidewalk, and an "open planter" zone seemingly with dirt/grass throughout instead of red brick sidewalk separating the MGT from the streetcar tracks? Wow. Hats off to WFT for actually noticing how badly those decisions impacted QQW and responding to fix them for QQE. Now, if only the streetcars were centre- rather than side-running (to this day, on both QQW and Cherry this remains a regular source of confusion for motorists), but still, this is a huge fix to cyclist and pedestrian separation. And during the busy summer tons of pedestrians used to stand on the super-narrow red brick "sidewalk" between the MGT and the streetcar tracks forcing streetcars to slow to a crawl and frequently stop and honk for them to move, so the "open planter" is also very welcome.

I would love to see them carry over these improvements to QQW. Grade-separation and open planters would be too high a cost, but the continuation of the MGT right up to the roadway at intersections alone could be huge, especially at York and Queens Quay which has one of the worst "mixing zones" along the entire stretch.

 

[drum118]

I would love to see them carry over these improvements to QQW. Grade-separation and open planters would be too high a cost, but the continuation of the MGT right up to the roadway at intersections alone could be huge, especially at York and Queens Quay which has one of the worst "mixing zones" along the entire stretch.

View attachment 300670
View attachment 300672
View attachment 300673
View attachment 300674

Fully agree, but lets wait first to see the next phase in action a year or two as there may have to be changes that needs a dressing and then take the changes back to QQW to improve what there now.

I also think some type of barrier should be considered. Nothing obtrusive or crazy, and it can be intermittent still allowing permeability. But some kind of delineating impediment...perhaps ditto for the bike path. It's obviously nice to have open woonerf style streetscapes. However this is the centre trunk of a transit corridor, and it gets busy on summer days.

I have recommend that type of change for some time, but not what TTC wanted.

Its nice to have the same street look, but clearly the public and cycles don't understand who is to be where, let alone cars. Flower beds, shrub, X space X distance stagger is an option.

If you took that street look and put it down in a city in Europe, they would understand where who is to be where without our problems,

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I would love to see them carry over these improvements to QQW. Grade-separation and open planters would be too high a cost, but the continuation of the MGT right up to the roadway at intersections alone could be huge, especially at York and Queens Quay which has one of the worst "mixing zones" along the entire stretch.

View attachment 300670
View attachment 300672
View attachment 300673
View attachment 300674

I think the biggest problem is that cyclists don't follow the traffic lights or the ones put there for them and then they expect for pedestrians to be able to see them racing their way down the path.

 

[smallspy]

I think the biggest problem is that cyclists don't follow the traffic lights or the ones put there for them and then they expect for pedestrians to be able to see them racing their way down the path.

While there is no doubt that there are some cyclists who have a blatant disregard for the roadway rules, don't kid yourself if you think that there aren't pedestrians who aren't blameless in this either.

Dan

 

[robmausser]

I think the biggest problem is that cyclists don't follow the traffic lights or the ones put there for them and then they expect for pedestrians to be able to see them racing their way down the path.

Honestly its everything down there, Ive been in the area multiple times either walking, biking, taking transit or driving. Its not one issue its a combination.

Yes, some bikers blow through the intersections, but pedestrians are constantly just stepping into the bike paths and causing lots of near accidents, as well as meandering onto the transit lines. Ive twice been on a streetcar as they had to slam on the emergency brake because a pedestrian just walked into the track. Im surprised no ones been killed yet.

Ontop of that you have drivers in the transit lanes.

A lot of the pedestrians and drivers in this area can be tourists, and because of that you need more barriers and signage than usual, not less.

Honestly the only people to blame for this are the designers of the waterfront, they focused entirely on style and glitz and nothing was examined for way-finding or safety or pedestrian/transit flow. Its a disaster.

 

[DSCToronto]

Honestly the only people to blame for this are the designers of the waterfront, they focused entirely on style and glitz and nothing was examined for way-finding or safety or pedestrian/transit flow. Its a disaster.

It is certainly not perfect but it's HARDLY "a disaster".

 

[drum118]

Honestly its everything down there, Ive been in the area multiple times either walking, biking, taking transit or driving. Its not one issue its a combination.

Yes, some bikers blow through the intersections, but pedestrians are constantly just stepping into the bike paths and causing lots of near accidents, as well as meandering onto the transit lines. Ive twice been on a streetcar as they had to slam on the emergency brake because a pedestrian just walked into the track. Im surprised no ones been killed yet.

Ontop of that you have drivers in the transit lanes.

A lot of the pedestrians and drivers in this area can be tourists, and because of that you need more barriers and signage than usual, not less.

Honestly the only people to blame for this are the designers of the waterfront, they focused entirely on style and glitz and nothing was examined for way-finding or safety or pedestrian/transit flow. Its a disaster.

The designer was not Waterfront Toronto, but West 8 out of Rotterdam, Netherlands who won the open competition and know something about Urban Design. Had said that, EMS, Toronto Traffic departments and a few others got their fingers into the design to make various changes that should not happen in the first place. Even TTC had their hands on some of the changes.

I have walked that ROW more times enough to see the dumb things on all parties part that cause problems as well design flaws.

A high over view plan is one thing, but once you get into the real design details, that is where things can fall apart or be improve on.

Going to one side is something no one in Toronto or outside of it has had any dealing and use of in the past. TTC wanted the centre of the road ROW as it was the only thing they knew and there were calls for it in the chat room this week, but prefer to leave it as is.

I have been calling far too long about more signage and some barriers as well the red paint on the ROW at all intersection. Spadina intersection is the worse of them as most driver expect to drive on the south side of the ROW, not the north side. Big arrows on the road would help in good daylight, but not much at night.

As for TTC breaking, its a system wide issue, not QQW issue alone regardless its a ROW or mix traffic.

In my December report and recommendations for QQE, I call for better signage and markings more for the south side since they are the ones who end up on the ROW more than Spadina issue. There are drivers who jump up onto the ROW going east as traffic is too slow for them and then force their way back into traffic.

 

[robmausser]

The designer was not Waterfront Toronto, but West 8 out of Rotterdam, Netherlands who won the open competition and know something about Urban Design. Had said that, EMS, Toronto Traffic departments and a few others got their fingers into the design to make various changes that should not happen in the first place. Even TTC had their hands on some of the changes.

I have walked that ROW more times enough to see the dumb things on all parties part that cause problems as well design flaws.

A high over view plan is one thing, but once you get into the real design details, that is where things can fall apart or be improve on.

Going to one side is something no one in Toronto or outside of it has had any dealing and use of in the past. TTC wanted the centre of the road ROW as it was the only thing they knew and there were calls for it in the chat room this week, but prefer to leave it as is.

I have been calling far too long about more signage and some barriers as well the red paint on the ROW at all intersection. Spadina intersection is the worse of them as most driver expect to drive on the south side of the ROW, not the north side. Big arrows on the road would help in good daylight, but not much at night.

As for TTC breaking, its a system wide issue, not QQW issue alone regardless its a ROW or mix traffic.

In my December report and recommendations for QQE, I call for better signage and markings more for the south side since they are the ones who end up on the ROW more than Spadina issue. There are drivers who jump up onto the ROW going east as traffic is too slow for them and then force their way back into traffic.

Everywhere thats not an intersection should have physical separation between the pedestrian walkway and the transit ROW in my opinion. Whether thats a stylish simple low fence or planters that continue unabated and physically make it impossible to walk across, thats fine.

On the road side, there should be a curb, although I think most of the time there is, although often its not very high.

As well, the bike lanes should be lowered and a curb so that pedestrians walking notice that its not for walking on.

 

[turini2]

Not sure if this lives here or the Queens Quay thread but - the Waterfront East LRT and the Queens Quay East Revitalisation went to March Waterfront DRP. Links below!

Queens Quay East Revitalization (DRAFT) PDF
Waterfront East LRT Area 1: Union to Queens Quay Link (DRAFT) PDF

(I'll reply if I find anything juicy)

 

[turini2]

Not sure if this lives here or the Queens Quay thread but - the Waterfront East LRT and the Queens Quay East Revitalisation went to March Waterfront DRP. Links below!

Queens Quay East Revitalization (DRAFT) PDF
Waterfront East LRT Area 1: Union to Queens Quay Link (DRAFT) PDF

(I'll reply if I find anything juicy)

Don't think I've seen these canopy designs before. Nice to know there's a matching one proposed for the existing portal.