Waterfront Transit Reset Phase 1 Study

[Deadpool X]

So how do they manage that many services with just 11 platforms? Does it have more to do with quicker turnaround times?

 

[allengeorge]

He/she was hoping that Union becomes one of the greatest station. Being busy is not comparable to being great. Penn is the busiest one but looks mediocre at best.

I didn't interpret that way. I simply read it as "it's a busy station". And it's true: Union is very busy - I didn't realize how busy until I looked up the stats. It's in a great location, is connected to both regional rail and the subway, and has a direct connection to the airport. Doesn't have anywhere near the grandeur of Grand Central though (or many European terminals). What NYC does have over Toronto is 4 heavily-used terminals to Toronto's 1: Penn, Grand Central, Jamaica, Atlantic.

 

[allengeorge]

So how do they manage that many services with just 11 platforms

So, the subways and PATH obviously don't share platforms with the rest of the services. They have 11 platforms, but can take 22 trains. I don''t know the answer to your the question, sorry.

 

[allengeorge]

Oh, and something else to say about location: Penn is great for regional travel, while Grand Central is great for Midtown and a lot of the bank towers (i.e. much of NYC's business district) - and for traveling upstate (or near upstate: places like Westchester, etc.) In NYC you don't quite have the equivalent to a station like Union which is great for CBD access, regional travel, inter-major-city-travel and for suburban travel simultaneously. At least, that's my opinion.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Oh, and something else to say about location: Penn is great for regional travel, while Grand Central is great for Midtown and a lot of the bank towers (i.e. much of NYC's business district) - and for traveling upstate (or near upstate: places like Westchester, etc.) In NYC you don't quite have the equivalent to a station like Union which is great for CBD access, regional travel and for suburban travel simultaneously. At least, that's my opinion.

If only we can eventually have HSR in an underground platform deep underneath the existing Union Gut the awful Via Concourse and open up the mall immediately below into an access atrium down to the HSR platform/concourse... I can dream indeed.

AoD

 

[Northern Light]

...... but I haven't seen most of the other stations in North America. so I can't say for sure. Although the platform level at Union is really bad.

How about other large old stations? How do they compare with Union in architecture and track/platform level?

Grand Central is gorgeous in the station house...............but............the platform level............:

Grand Central Terminal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Penn Station's Platforms:

New York Penn Station - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Chicago Union Station Platform:

All Aboard! Union Station Chicago

Chicago was the starting point for a cross-country adventure that my sister just returned from. We both have a fascination with trains and last year we took our first cross-country trip on the Cali…

theeffstop.com

 

[allengeorge]

If only we can eventually have HSR in an underground platform deep underneath the existing Union

Unfortunately I think that HFR/HSR will forever be 10 years in the future, and being studied. Frustrating.

 

[allengeorge]

Grand Central is gorgeous in the station house...............but............the platform level............:

Yeah. Grand Central's platform level is dingy, as is Penn's. They may be redoing all the platforms soon? Penn is undergoing major rework as we speak. The last time I was there the LIRR area upstairs was completely redone, and they're going through section by section.

I did find Go's platforms particularly claustrophic however, and I don't know why. The platforms at Penn can't be that much wider, can they?

 

[Deadpool X]

Grand Central is gorgeous in the station house...............but............the platform level............:

View attachment 288320

Grand Central Terminal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Penn Station's Platforms:

View attachment 288321

New York Penn Station - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Chicago Union Station Platform:
View attachment 288322

All Aboard! Union Station Chicago

Chicago was the starting point for a cross-country adventure that my sister just returned from. We both have a fascination with trains and last year we took our first cross-country trip on the Cali…

theeffstop.com

That made me throw up a little. They don't look much different from a typical dilapidated NYC subway station.

 

[Northern Light]

That made me throw up a little. They don't look much different from a typical dilapidated NYC subway station.

If it makes you feel any better, the Chicago Union Station main building/headhouse looks like this:

Union Station

Chicago’s Union Station serves as an excellent example of Chicago’s historical standing as a transportation…

www.architecture.org

Union Station

Chicago’s Union Station serves as an excellent example of Chicago’s historical standing as a transportation…

www.architecture.org

 

[Northern Light]

Side note, this is a link to a list of the busiest train stations in North America.

Note the names, note the volumes and the number of platforms.

List of busiest railway stations in North America - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[allengeorge]

I will say this: American public works have a sense of grandeur that's completely missing from Canadian public buildings. You really do feel a sense of awe. I mean, (speaking of something built recently) the Occulus is kinda mind-blowing when you're inside.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I will say this: American public works have a sense of grandeur that's completely missing from Canadian public buildings. You really do feel a sense of awe. I mean, (speaking of something built recently) the Occulus is kinda mind-blowing when you're inside.

You'd be raked through the coals if you propose to build something like the Oculus here -on the basis of cost alone - and it may be the right thing to do in this case. Context (ie. 9/11) aside, spending this much on a trophy piece when there are so many structural issues with NYC transit (yes, different pots of money, but still) is kind of abhorrent.

AoD

 

[Northern Light]

I will say this: American public works have a sense of grandeur that's completely missing from Canadian public buildings. You really do feel a sense of awe. I mean, (speaking of something built recently) the Occulus is kinda mind-blowing when you're inside.

Some do.

Its important to consider context.

Union Station L.A. is quite nice, but I wouldn't say its more grand than Toronto Union:

LA’s different kind of cathedral

Here’s a perk of our glorious city: LA’s public transportation system offers free, docent-led art tours led in various Metro stations throughout the city. You can check out the possibilities at Metro.net/art. Union Station tours are held on the second Sunday of the month and run from 10:30 a.m...

angelusnews.com

When Looking at Chicago's Union Station; lets consider that when it was built, in 1925, Chicago was ~2,800,000 people.

Toronto in the same period was ~600,000 (400'ish in 1921, 800'ish in '31) as per the census.

NYC by comparison was over 6M, or more than 10x the size!

 

[allengeorge]

You'd be raked through the coals if you propose to build something like the Oculus here -on the basis of cost alone - and it may be the right thing to do in this case.

As I should be. There is a tension between value for dollar and awe-inspiring. If I had to spend $4 billion I'd rather spend it on the waterfront LRT or the EELRT. That said...people absolutely do visit NYC to see Grand Central; sometimes it's nice to have something incredible to remind us of where we can reach, and what we can achieve.