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Waterfront Transit Reset Phase 1 Study

How should Toronto connect the East and West arms of the planned waterfront transit with downtown?

  • Expand the existing Union loop

    Votes: 121 74.2%
  • Build a Western terminus

    Votes: 8 4.9%
  • Route service along Queen's Quay with pedestrian/cycle/bus connection to Union

    Votes: 18 11.0%
  • Connect using existing Queen's Quay/Union Loop and via King Street

    Votes: 4 2.5%
  • Other

    Votes: 12 7.4%

  • Total voters
    163

ADRM

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Perhaps its the fiscal conservative in me, but I don't understand why we can't just connect Exhibition Place loop to Dufferin Street loop by running it through Exhibition Place on a ROW, make King Street an ROW with no parking to the Queensway, make Lakeshore West an ROW to Long Branch, run the current Flexities and call it a day.

GO RER will be running pretty adjacent to this line so I don't see the need for it to be super express service.
Still need a provision for Queen's Quay and a potential connection to the Portlands though, yeah?
 

robmausser

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Still need a provision for Queen's Quay and a potential connection to the Portlands though, yeah?
Yes, but why can't we simply have a fork at Queens Quay and an eastern exit where some streetcars go East and some go West? With both getting served by the current Union Loop and tunnel.
 

ADRM

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Yes, but why can't we simply have a fork at Queens Quay and an eastern exit where some streetcars go East and some go West? With both getting served by the current Union Loop and tunnel.
Sounds plausible to me (though I admittedly know less about it than others), although I do wonder if there will be a desire here to bypass Union on account of predicted overcapacity.
 

DSC

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Sounds plausible to me (though I admittedly know less about it than others), although I do wonder if there will be a desire here to bypass Union on account of predicted overcapacity.
The problem is that the loop at Union cannot handle much more traffic and people want to get to Union not to Queen's Quay and Parliament. I also understand that there is an expensive job in actually making a Y underground at Bay and Queen's Quay due to beams and water. If you want more details and ideas read the transit EA that was finished in 2007 or 2008. See: http://www.waterfrontoronto.ca/explore_projects2/east_bayfront/queens_quay_blvd/east_bayfront_transit_environmental_assessment The conclusions were:

"After a thorough and rigorous analysis which included a robust consultation program with stakeholders, agencies and the public, it was determined that the transit corridor for East Bayfront would run along Queens Quay to Union Station via Bay Street and that Light Rail Transit in its own right of way is the preferred type of transit.

In addition, the EA also looked at where the streetcar would surface to serve the eastern part of Queens Quay. Currently the streetcar runs underground beneath Bay Street and surfaces from a portal on Queens Quay serving the western part of Queens Quay only. The EA recommends that the streetcar portal for East Bayfront should be on Queens Quay just east of Yonge Street.

An interim streetcar loop is planned at Parliament Street in the east end of East Bayfront. The study also provides for a future extension of the LRT line through the Lower Don Lands and the Port Lands as those communities develop."
 

ADRM

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Super interesting, thanks for digging that up. Regarding "The EA recommends that the streetcar portal for East Bayfront should be on Queens Quay just east of Yonge Street", does that refer to the point at which the streetcar is recommended to re-emerge from below-grade to service above-grade stops along QQ?
 

DSC

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Super interesting, thanks for digging that up. Regarding "The EA recommends that the streetcar portal for East Bayfront should be on Queens Quay just east of Yonge Street", does that refer to the point at which the streetcar is recommended to re-emerge from below-grade to service above-grade stops along QQ?
Yes.
 

rbt

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The problem is that the loop at Union cannot handle much more traffic and people want to get to Union not to Queen's Quay and Parliament. I also understand that there is an expensive job in actually making a Y underground at Bay and Queen's Quay due to beams and water. If you want more details and ideas read the transit EA that was finished in 2007 or 2008. See: http://www.waterfrontoronto.ca/explore_projects2/east_bayfront/queens_quay_blvd/east_bayfront_transit_environmental_assessment
The looks restriction was passenger load rather than actually streetcar capacity (platforms are too small) of the loop. The leased basement of 45 Bay (new Metrolinx bus terminal) might alleviate some of that issue. While it's a bit of a walk to the subway, you could completely replace the loop platform with it.
 

drum118

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The Master Plan approved in 2006 saw QQ going east-west bypassing Union as a branch, as well coming from Broadview Station. A branch would run from Broadview to Union was look at by the Cherry St line.

Even though it wasn't under the Master Plan Official, there was a vision of an QQE line going out to Long Branch.

The QQE portal is just east of Yonge St with a stop at Freeland.

The current portal would have to be rebuilt to allow a T connection to allow QQE to gain access to Union as well bypass it. QQE would be tunnel east to Yonge St.

During the 2008 EA, it was vision that the new Bay portal would be built while QQW was being rebuilt. You are now looking at closing QQW from 3-9 months to build the new portal and that depends how the tunneling is to be done.

Union Loop was the bottleneck as it could not handle both the ridership as well the number of cars using the loop. TTC Plan for enlarging the loop is only good for today needs and would never meet full built out under then vision for development. Based on today development vision, the loop will beyond complicity by 2030 or sooner, depending with the extension are built.
 

W. K. Lis

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Wonder if they will be looking at double-ended streetcars after this streetcar order is completed? That's in about thirty years.

Don't know if that is when they expect that to be the life-expectancy of the new streetcars or when they expect the last streetcar will be delivered.
 

drum118

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May 24th, 2016

Waterfront Transit Reset Study Public Meeting (6:00 - 8:30pm)

Harbourfront Centre (235 Queens Quay W), Brigantine Room

This Phase 1 study is being undertaken by the City of Toronto, in partnership with the Toronto Transit Commission and Waterfront Toronto in order to help establish a vision and plan for a comprehensive waterfront transit network.

This study will review existing waterfront transit, previously planned transit initiatives, and current and future transit needs. A range of transit alternatives will be developed and evaluated to help determine a preferred east-west waterfront transit solution that will integrate north/south transit and active transportation, linking people from across the City to the waterfront and its nearby destinations and attractions.
 

44 North

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Translation: Help us delay a streetcar on Queens Quay East as long as possible.
If this were one of the many other delayed projects on our city's wishlist, I can understand. But I think almost everyone is on the same page about getting transit out to QQE as quick as possible, with as little snafus as possible. Even anti-streetcar Rob Ford was pushing the project.

Basically there are many reasons for this "Reset". And though it might not seem like it, expediting construction asap is probably right near the top.
 

EastYorkTTCFan

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but I don't understand why we can't just connect Exhibition Place loop to Dufferin Street loop by running it through Exhibition Place on a ROW,
The only thing I can see that can interfere with this is the current location of the ticket office for the Go train station as well as access for it from the grounds. If you run tracks from the existing loop you would have a situation similar or worse than queens quay is right now with pedestrians after major events .
 

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