Waterfront Transit Reset Phase 1 Study

[smallspy]

Nobody is asking you to compromise your sources. What is being asked is if you don't have evidence of your claims, don't post them at all.

If you do post those unsubstantiated claims then don't be surprised when people question their (and your) credibility.

Then by your definition, I shouldn't be posted be posting anything from any of my sources, should I?

Classic catch 22, methinks....

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[drum118]

This is my interpretation of the Waterfront LRT from Long Branch Station to Union Station. It will also use the existing streetcar tracks from Humber Loop to Colborne Lodge where it will turn onto the Lake Shore and go past Ontario Place then on Fort York/Bremner into Union Station. I used the 512 St. Clair LRT stop spacing for the 508 Lake Shore LRT line also. I could make a map with longer spacing too.

First of all, there are approved EA's for this 508 starting with 1993 along the Lake Shore for the CNE as well Lake Shore from Dufferin St to Colborne Lodge about 2012(?).

I agree with reducing stops in Long Branch like other lines, but strong opposition to do it. I also agree there is no need for an ROW on that section other than a few short areas like Park Lawn to Humber River.

The Fort York option is off the table due to what taking place there today as well Fort York itself. Bremmer has never made any sense that even CityPlace developers never saw it nor support it. TTC see the Bathurst 519 using Bremmer section and if one check the buses using that area, ridership is non existing. Even though there is a tunnel under the ACC, where to put the portal is a major issue and not welcome on the east side of York.

If one check ridership for the current 501 & 508, very few are going to the downtown area of Toronto and being more local. Ask TTC about those numbers.

I was out voted for keeping the Lake Shore Line 100% on the new Lake shore and going over the Humber River than Colborne Lodge route during the EA process. TTC wanted the Colborne route as it allow cars to get to/from the yard as well using the existing Queensway tracks. Going over the Humber becomes a faster and shorter route even though the bridge will have to be rebuilt, but it opens up the public domain land a lot better. You have new development taking place there as well these days.

Until the government decides what it wants to do with Ontario Place, having a line along the Lake Shore is up in the air. CNE does have issues with that routing as it will interfere with the Indy. That is why TTC is now building the extension from the current CNE loop to Dufferin St. It also allow TTC to run different service either from Dufferin Loop, Sunnyside Loop as well Dundas West Station or what every. It needs to be place in the 2018 official transit master plan.

All these ideas have been around for years as well decades and part of the review process.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Anything relate to a Park Lawn loop and GO Station is on hold until there is a master plan as what will happen to the Christie lands. Only then will there a full review what will happen for transit there.

This is a ridiculous approach. Christies is only one anticipated development in an area that is already a high rise jungle. While whatever is decided for Christies could change the ridership numbers, the overall impact is likely only +\- 10% for the overall demand. The numbers without Christies justify LRT design, and even in the most extreme scenario the numbers won't justify subway. So, just get on with it !

And, last I heard, the various negotiations and litigation could go on forever..... sure makes me think that somebody is giving a lame excuse to try to keep this project stalled.

- Paul

First of all, having a loop at Christie is still missing the riders west of it like it does today.

Not having a GO Station there today is a huge mistake and continue to show the narrow thinking at all levels of Metrolinx. It been rejected because of lack of car spots since GO/Metrolinx think car drivers are the driving force for ridership, not transit.

Its nice to see 2 of my options are on the table that I recommended years ago for 2 different areas. Its also nice to see a dumb idea that been on the table for a decade being down graded to a bus route if it gets off the ground at all. 750 in both direction for 18 hours of service is too low for a bus route in the first place.

Until the government decide what it want to do with Ontario Place, it will have an impact on some transit plans.

2 lines needs to be added to the city official plan in 2018 and has been around for a few decades is an ROW on Kipling and the Queensway. More so for Kipling with the major changes to six point.

The problem with this study like in the past for approved EA's, where is the money going to come from to build these new lines and when would we see them??

I think I've got to agree with crs1026 here, this is a cop-out response from Metrolinx in regards to Park Lawn/GO.

One can easily project a higher-end pop/employment case scenario for the Christie lands, and plan out a transportation plan for the area with that higher-end scenario in mind. This wouldn't be a rash decision because two things are already true - 1) Existing transportation in the area for all modes is woefully inadequate for present demand levels, and; 2) We already know that band-aid solutions (such as an introduction of a streetcar loop) will not be enough.

 

[drum118]

The Park lawn area is being ignore by the City of Toronto, TTC and Metrolinx as they aren't willing to address this issues that have been around for over a decade or more.

As I have stated in the past, having access to/from the Gardiner to a parking structure at Park Lawn would remove cars east of it, but will still have the same numbers west of of it.

There is and will be more people living in the Park Lawn area than Minico to justify the station, but Metrolinx is saying its too close together and would slow service down. They aren't willing to look at different type of service to deal with the 2 stations being close together. This also applies to other areas.

You still got one more condo to be built on Park Lawn as well the Christie site. Then you have the Food Terminal lands that will be develop one day. Once you add all these future developments on top of what has been built and is being built, you will have about a 4 to 1 ratio for the full build out of the Mimico station area.

Having a TTC loop at the Park Lawn station still doesn't address the issues west of it that needs to be address. Depending on what option is use to get from Park Lawn to Union, it may address the issue west of it.

Yes there are environment issues for Metrolinx to have a station at Park Lawn and no different than a few others they are dealing with today.

As long as Metrolinx think Choo Choo with long distance between station and today type of service, they are shooting themselves in the foot and missing the big picture.

 

[dowlingm]

I have

The Park lawn area is being ignore by the City of Toronto, TTC and Metrolinx as they aren't willing to address this issues that have been around for over a decade or more.

(Snip)

As long as Metrolinx think Choo Choo with long distance between station and today type of service, they are shooting themselves in the foot and missing the big picture.

this is an issue of commuting between a Toronto suburb and downtown. Absent a political decision at provincial level and/or financial engagement by the City, what's in it for GO Transit to do anything they don't see as making financial sense for them?

 

[drum118]

I have
this is an issue of commuting between a Toronto suburb and downtown. Absent a political decision at provincial level and/or financial engagement by the City, what's in it for GO Transit to do anything they don't see as making financial sense for them?

Again, everyone thinks going into Toronto centre for AM peak is where the action is, when it going both direction today as well other parts of the city compare to the past. In some cases its the only option as its to long of a trip to get where a person wants to go in the first place.

Until the corridors are electrify, its hard to get away with short trains and TTC quality of service not only with the 416 area, but a lot of the 905. GO Transit, aka Metrolinx see long trains with longer headway as cost saving when it has more of a cost factor and longer time getting out of stations either by car or foot that caused gridlock on the street. Having a train pulling into Union with over 1,200 people every few minutes especially when 2 are using the same is not fun trying to get off the platform even if its only one train.

The province has been the main source for most transportation problems and until they deal with the root of the problem, its going to be a bitch to travel anywhere with longer commute time.

What we saw back in 2004 to 2010 for the waterfront is not even close today where density is over 4 times higher now and transit will never handle it based on where council wants to go as well fund it.

We are seeing the financial centre shifting to the south with more office towers going there than every vision.

If we move to a Tram-Train network, it would deal with a lot of travel plans problems, as well getting people to where they want to go faster.

 

[DSC]

The Waterfront Transit Reset Study Phase 2 began late last year and, according to the WT website and the June WT Update "Phase 2 study underway and is anticipated to conclude in 2017 with a recommended waterfront transit network solution."

No doubt something is going on in the background but does anyone have any idea - based on knowledge not just 'instinct' - of "when" the results will be released and if there will be public meeting(s) to discuss draft proposals?

 

[drum118]

The Waterfront Transit Reset Study Phase 2 began late last year and, according to the WT website and the June WT Update "Phase 2 study underway and is anticipated to conclude in 2017 with a recommended waterfront transit network solution."

No doubt something is going on in the background but does anyone have any idea - based on knowledge not just 'instinct' - of "when" the results will be released and if there will be public meeting(s) to discuss draft proposals?

If you look back a few post, I did post info on open houses as well a timetable for the report. I also post what I am allow to on what I know then also. Beyond that, its wait and see for Sept.

 

[toaster29]

Again, everyone thinks going into Toronto centre for AM peak is where the action is, when it going both direction today as well other parts of the city compare to the past. In some cases its the only option as its to long of a trip to get where a person wants to go in the first place.

I live at Humber Bay Shores and commute west in the morning, and I agree the traffic goes in all directions. I've been surprised in my discussions with neighbours that many do not seem to work downtown. A lot of us seem to work in Mississauga, Oakville, a few I've met work in York region, and North York. I think the lack of rapid transit here (and how close it is to the Gardiner) opened up the area to people who do not work downtown. Of course this kind of density should have rapid transit, but my feeling is that I don't mind paying the cheap 10$ or so Uber fare when I do head out for a night downtown. During the summer I can ride my bike when I need to get there. I imagine there are a lot of other residents here like me that don't make that commute to downtown regularly.

 

[DopeyFish]

If you look back a few post, I did post info on open houses as well a timetable for the report. I also post what I am allow to on what I know then also. Beyond that, its wait and see for Sept.

i will be incredibly upset if they don't make the LRT go through lakeshore village/long branch

Also regarding you previous reveal (digging), I do remember during the Scarborough subway vote, they casually mentioned the WWLRT costing request being in excess of $1.2 billion which shocked me because initial costing in Transit City was under $600 mil.

So something major must have changed.

 

[rbt]

So something major must have changed.

10 years at a ~7% inflation rate will do that.

It really is much cheaper for the government to borrow billions and billions at 3% than to wait a few years and build it later. Unfortunately, our execution on transit files has been horrible over the last 8 years.

 

[DopeyFish]

10 years at a ~7% inflation rate will do that.

It really is much cheaper for the government to borrow billions and billions at 3% than to wait a few years and build it later. Unfortunately, our execution on transit files has been horrible over the last 8 years.

But the inflation rate hasn't been over 3% for the previous 10 years.

 

[rbt]

But the inflation rate hasn't been over 3% for the previous 10 years.

There are numerous inflation rates. The CPI (Consumer Price Index) you're thinking of reflects things like prices at the grocery store, household electronics, etc. which are appropriate for a typical household to compare current and prior costs (or for the banker handling their mortgage).

There is little in common between it and construction costs. The cost increases on materials like steel, concrete (limestone in particular), labour, etc. is far more relevant and MTO averages it at about 7% for the last couple decades in Ontario.

 

[DopeyFish]

There are numerous inflation rates. The CPI (Consumer Price Index) you're thinking of reflects things like prices at the grocery store, household electronics, etc. There is little in common between it and construction costs. The inflation rate on materials like steel, concrete (limestone mostly), labour, etc. is far more relevant and MTO averages it at about 7% for the last couple decades in Ontario.

I was looking at the ICPI, though? (infrastructure construction price index). I'm thinking there's more impact on external issues, i.e. currency.

 

[drum118]

i will be incredibly upset if they don't make the LRT go through lakeshore village/long branch

Also regarding you previous reveal (digging), I do remember during the Scarborough subway vote, they casually mentioned the WWLRT costing request being in excess of $1.2 billion which shocked me because initial costing in Transit City was under $600 mil.

So something major must have changed.

I will say from my point of view, there is no need for an ROW west of Parkland with an exception of a few short section and that has been the view of TTC in the past as well today, The photos above show one of many narrow section where land will be needed for an ROW and a major complaint by locals. There needs to be a few stops remove like other lines and I have made that recommendation years ago along with other routes.

As for cost, they climb over time and since it was at a subway meeting, it was saying its almost the same as having a subway in place of an LRT. I take these figures with a grain of salt at these meetings until a meeting is held on the line itself.