Waterfront Transit Reset Phase 1 Study

[drum118]

Nobody doubts the QQE LRT is a good idea and this has been the case since about 2010 when the mantra was "transit first". There has been discussion of details but not the concept. What has been lacking, and still is, is political commitment and $. While it's good to see the Waterfront BIA keeping it on the radar, I am not sure that's enough.

The problem with Transit First and the Waterfront has been Union Station since day one going back to 2004. The big issue is money and the unknowns how to fix Union 100% for everything with too many cooks in the kitchen. Union Station is so late and over budget and some 10 years late so far.

When they dug the west concourse and started to build it, they found many columns not lining up or not in the right spot that the the new column extension had to be increase in size so all the existing columns line up correctly. Was in that hole a few times and have photos of those columns issues as well other. It was also pointed out to the media on a tour for them about the columns issues.

For me, the streetcar loop is the major holdup from day one as any extension to it will never handle the ridership for the whole waterfront redevelopment that was based on low density compare to what is now plan.

The city keep pushing things down the road that it has removed things from the Master Plan as they see it happen 50 years plus down the road as well not having funds to do it in the first place. Same applies to TTC.

TTC has preferred to use buses first than RT regardless what should be in place on day one to stop ppl needing a car to live/work or play in the new areas. Waterfront Toronto has always wanted RT from day one, but like the City and TTC don't have the funding to do the RT right from day one that they are short 2 LRT bridges with no foundation in place for them if money is found next week to build the bridges.

The idea of having affordable for the waterfront has been in the master plan, but how much and what type has never been on the table. What kind of affordably would go into building where the starting price is $2 Million for a unit as well how many??

Where are the sports fields for kids to play at today let along schools and community-based centre? Been built after everyone has moved in and only have to look at CityPlace that has seen the same thing already.

Transit is a must and long over due already by 8 years with another 4-7 years before it happens. I don't care if it happens as plan now or to Cherry St Loop, but the current plan is what I would like to see ASP than later

Its going to take 20 years or more to fully buildout the area and leaves us sometime to deal with the 2 missing bridges. The big push is to get the east-west line into service first and then let TTC and the city worry how to built and pay for the new Union Loop to meet the future ridership that is currently under estimated.

The 2 persons from the BIA who were part of the EA team sure made it known what they wanted to see happen.

 

[drum118]

Being a nice day, decided to visited Portland area and reshot what I shoot a few months ago since it was a dull day in the first place.

With the change as to where the extension is to go now, a few things jump out for me well shooting the area. Since the new Cherry St has yet to be built on both side of the Keating channel bridges, one hopes some rough in for the LRT will take place now than later. The same thing for Commissioner St that not close being ready.

All the existing roads, sidewalks and cycling path will have to be cut and remove down the road to allow the LRT tracks to be install once there is approval for the extension. It would nice to place the tracks across the new roads and sidewalks while building them. It would save time and disruption down the road by doing it now if the locations are known per the 30% plan. Otherwise will require a weekend closure of everything to remove the existing items and place the tracks into position. One hopes the old Cherry street is still in place to be use as an bypass when time comes to do the new Cherry St work.

 

[drum118]

For TTC Feb 28 meeting

2. Waterfront Transit Network:
The Executive Director, Transit Expansion Office, to undertake a constructability review of the Union Station to Queens Quay Link and the East Bayfront Light Rapid Transit (the Waterfront East Light Rapid Transit ), in Transit Network Expansion Update Page 7 of 23 consultation with the Chief Planner and Executive Director, City Planning, the TTC and Waterfront Toronto, to assess constructability and co-ordination risks with major infrastructure projects in the vicinity of the Waterfront East Light Rapid Transit alignment.

3. Waterfront Transit Network:
The Executive Director, Transit Expansion Office, in consultation with the Chief Planner and Executive Director, City Planning, the TTC and Waterfront Toronto, to report back to City Council in concert with reports on the Next Phase of Waterfront Revitalization anticipated in second quarter of 2023 with: a. the recommended alignment and scope of the project based on ongoing work and the review outlined above; b. an updated cost estimate; and c. a funding, financing and implementation strategy, including a phasing plan.

 

[drum118]

Sadly, the report still calling for an 2030-31 opening date and a big mistake. If they get the portal rebuilt as phase 1 for TTC, Waterfront can have the east-west line open in 2027-28 if shovels can get into the ground in mid 2024.

 

[Allandale25]

Just received this via email.

Greetings,

The City of Toronto, TTC, and Waterfront Toronto have been working on several details of the Waterfront East LRT extension and we want to share with you our progress and hear your feedback. The design team, will be holding a virtual public meeting on April 5th, from 6:30 to 8:30pm to provide an update on the following topics:

• A summary of feedback from previous consultations;
• Design Updates for Segment 1 (Union Station to QQ), Segment 2 (Queens Quay East) and Segment 3 (Cherry St, Commissioners St and a new Loop);
• Updated Project Phasing and Implementation;
• An Update on the Transit Project Assessment Process (TPAP), constructability assessment, and business case

The meeting will include a presentation from staff followed by an opportunity to ask questions.

Date: April 5, 2023 6:30-8:30 PM
Registration: https://lura-ca.zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_AEtcIHIyScKv5vMV2PHhOA
Dial: +1 647 558 0588
Webinar ID: 633 9136 6109

Regards,
Waterfront LRT Team

 

[DSC]

^ it's not a public meeting? It says that in the text of the email I got: "The design team, will be holding a virtual public meeting on April 5th, from 6:30 to 8:30pm to provide an update on the following topics:" and the subject line of the email.

Apologies, I stand corrected. There is a non-public one a week or so earlier!

 

[drum118]

Apologies, I stand corrected. There is a non-public one a week or so earlier!

Yep!!

This a Public On Line meeting and need to sign up​

Waterfront East LRT Meeting Registration​

Facebook Twitter LinkedIn Microsoft (Outlook)

Topic
Waterfront East LRT Public Meeting #3
Description
The City of Toronto, TTC, and Waterfront Toronto have been working on several details of the Waterfront East LRT extension, and we want to share with you our progress and hear your feedback. The design team will be holding a virtual public meeting to provide an update on the following topics:

• A summary of feedback from previous consultations;
• Design Updates for Segment 1 (Union Station to QQ), Segment 2 (Queens Quay East) and Segment 3 (Cherry St, Commissioners St and a new Loop);
• Updated Project Phasing and Implementation;
• An Update on the Transit Project Assessment Process (TPAP), constructability assessment, and business case


The meeting will include a presentation from staff followed by an opportunity to ask questions.
Time
Apr 5, 2023 06:30 PM in Eastern Time (US and Canada)

 

[Allandale25]

Apologies, I stand corrected. There is a non-public one a week or so earlier!

NP

 

[Towered]

How many more meetings? How many more discussions???

 

[Towered]

 

[Amare]

How many more meetings? How many more discussions???

You didnt hear? They've turned the Waterfront East LRT meetings to a new Toronto quarterly festival where residents get to celebrate the great new sketches that our planners come up with.

I actually think it's a great thing, I mean why build anything when we can have a festival where we dream about building things right?

 

[drum118]

These are my views as well what I know to date. It will be interesting to see what others have to say after April 5 Public Meeting for the QQE.

I am very disturbed as to where we are today with the bleak out look for the funding of the QQE based on the current financial position for both TTC and the City. I am l dishearten that this line is not built yet along with several other ones considering when they were approved..

Union Loop

If the loop gets built as per the renderings as well the 4 platforms, the loop will be 10 times better than today.

TTC is finally acknowledging that the Bremmer Line is dead as there is very little protection for it in the new loop, but side steps saying its officially dead as its still in the official City plan. Sorry TTC, but the official plan get reviewed and updated every few years and not that hard to removed the line from the plan like it has happen for other lines and things.

Queens Quay Station

What you see there today will be the same when QQE opens along with the single elevator that is broken down quit often these days. It a slap in the face for not only the accessibility community, but people with walkers, strollers and those who cannot use the stairs.

The plan development for 11 Bay is dead now and that removes the plan new entrance to the station.

There needs to be 2 elevators to handle the summer crowds as well having at least one elevator in service when the other one breaks down or needs maintenance. Maybe should look at an elevator for the east sidewalk when the current one gets rebuilt. Having an unknown date when the station maybe upgrade is not acceptable.

TTC and the city needs to be ready to see legal actions by a number of groups over these single elevators come 2026 as they are forcing riders to spend more time travelling to get to their station when that station elevator is out of service. I am not part of these groups and fully support them.

Portals

The canopy over the portal has been deferred to an unknown date.

Phases

The term phases that have been used in the past are now call section.

Cherry St Test Grass Project

The test bed plan for Cherry St ROW will look at grass, watering it, how EMS and TTC buses can run on the QQE grass ROW.

Commissioner St Loop

The plan remains as per drawings posted in the thread and I have no objection to it.

There would be no need for a loop if we had duel end cars as they would use the crossover before the stop that could be used in the future for short turning.

Parliament streetcars

The call for having streetcars on Parliament St keeps popping up more times than enough since 2003 that will connect to the QQE but keeps getting shot down as its outside the mandate area. Sorry, the Waterfront Transit is part of a network and how it fit into the city network needs to be always on the table.

Construction

When is construction not an issue these days with all the developments taking place along the proposed route or within 500m of the line. If the line got built as plan, the amount of construction would have been very low interfering it then to what it will be when construction starts.

With the construction of the OL starting to take place, it will have an impact on traffic especially on Parliament along with the 2 developments at the rail corridor. Then there is the Gardiner Expressway work.

Cherry St Loop

ML work for the OL currently has an impact on the extension for the line to the point it will be the last section built around 2035, subject to funding. The plan for the new underpass is now right beside the current underpass with an east side sidewalk. The current tower will be move to the east side of the ROW compare further to the east as original plan.

Roads

As normal, some want 4 lanes of traffic to deal with the traffic gridlock, but it will be 2 lanes like the western section as traffic study shows 60% of the traffic is through traffic and under 600 per hour with the percentage being higher for peak time and special events. Again, this defeat Transit First mandate.

Timeline

At this point, April 5 will be the only public meeting with a Q&A on April 11.

Report goes to the Executive Committee in May a week before going to Council and TTC Commission.

The 120-day TRAP is planned to start in July or about with full approval by Q2 2024

Waterfront Toronto is doing 60% design the QQE and starting construction of the new QQ extension in 2026/27.

The QQE East-West Line is plan for 2032 and way too late, as well subject to funding. I still say it could be up and running 3 years after funds are on hand for it and leave the loop to TTC own timetable along with funding for it. I would say we could be looking at a 2028/29 opening day date now.

Real Dates

Its time to interduce real dates when things can start once money is available as well a completion date than saying x time frame. It should be pointed out that these dates are based on having funds on hand in 2024 and will be pushed down the road on a yearly based until funding has been obtain for the project. It should be noted that the cost of the project will go up yearly for every year the project is delay.

Recommendation

My recommendation is that Waterfront Toronto along with TTC build the ROW up to where the east portal is to start first to the point TTC starting building the portal up to just east of Bay St before closing the loop. It will take less than one year to fully rebuilt the west portal as well the connection to the Bay tunnel and the new east Portal. This means that both the 509/510 streetcars will be replace by buses for the one year or less than the 3-4 years doing the full route.

As to when the Union Loop opens will depend on TTC, funding and what surprises that could show up while rebuilding the loop.

TTC and the City needs to look at upgrading Queens Quay sooner than later as well having 2 or more elevators.

Transit First

Waterfront Toronto has wanted to have Transit First in place ahead of the redevelopment of the waterfront to the point development will be completed before transit is in place.

A fair number of the board and the public could be gone by the time QQE goes into service and will never get a chance to ride it.

Because transit is so late, it is keeping people in their cars as well having a major traffic impact city wide, let alone the waterfront.

 

[polesingularity]

The plan development for QQ and Bay is dead now and that removes the plan new entrance to the station.

You mean 11 Bay? That's very disappointing (among other parts of your update). Might be worth updating its thread with that information.

 

[ARG1]

TTC is finally acknowledging that the Bremmer Line is dead as there is very little protection for it in the new loop

Wait really?

 

[vz64]

These are my views as well what I know to date. It will be interesting to see what others have to say after April 5 Public Meeting for the QQE.

I am very disturbed as to where we are today with the bleak out look for the funding of the QQE based on the current financial position for both TTC and the City. I am l dishearten that this line is not built yet along with several other ones considering when they were approved..

Union Loop

If the loop gets built as per the renderings as well the 4 platforms, the loop will be 10 times better than today.

TTC is finally acknowledging that the Bremmer Line is dead as there is very little protection for it in the new loop, but side steps saying its officially dead as its still in the official City plan. Sorry TTC, but the official plan get reviewed and updated every few years and not that hard to removed the line from the plan like it has happen for other lines and things.

Queens Quay Station

What you see there today will be the same when QQE opens along with the single elevator that is broken down quit often these days. It a slap in the face for not only the accessibility community, but people with walkers, strollers and those who cannot use the stairs.

The plan development for 11 Bay is dead now and that removes the plan new entrance to the station.

There needs to be 2 elevators to handle the summer crowds as well having at least one elevator in service when the other one breaks down or needs maintenance. Maybe should look at an elevator for the east sidewalk when the current one gets rebuilt. Having an unknown date when the station maybe upgrade is not acceptable.

TTC and the city needs to be ready to see legal actions by a number of groups over these single elevators come 2026 as they are forcing riders to spend more time travelling to get to their station when that station elevator is out of service. I am not part of these groups and fully support them.

Portals

The canopy over the portal has been deferred to an unknown date.

Phases

The term phases that have been used in the past are now call section.

Cherry St Test Grass Project

The test bed plan for Cherry St ROW will look at grass, watering it, how EMS and TTC buses can run on the QQE grass ROW.

Commissioner St Loop

The plan remains as per drawings posted in the thread and I have no objection to it.

There would be no need for a loop if we had duel end cars as they would use the crossover before the stop that could be used in the future for short turning.

Parliament streetcars

The call for having streetcars on Parliament St keeps popping up more times than enough since 2003 that will connect to the QQE but keeps getting shot down as its outside the mandate area. Sorry, the Waterfront Transit is part of a network and how it fit into the city network needs to be always on the table.

Construction

When is construction not an issue these days with all the developments taking place along the proposed route or within 500m of the line. If the line got built as plan, the amount of construction would have been very low interfering it then to what it will be when construction starts.

With the construction of the OL starting to take place, it will have an impact on traffic especially on Parliament along with the 2 developments at the rail corridor. Then there is the Gardiner Expressway work.

Cherry St Loop

ML work for the OL currently has an impact on the extension for the line to the point it will be the last section built around 2035, subject to funding. The plan for the new underpass is now right beside the current underpass with an east side sidewalk. The current tower will be move to the east side of the ROW compare further to the east as original plan.

Roads

As normal, some want 4 lanes of traffic to deal with the traffic gridlock, but it will be 2 lanes like the western section as traffic study shows 60% of the traffic is through traffic and under 600 per hour with the percentage being higher for peak time and special events. Again, this defeat Transit First mandate.

Timeline

At this point, April 5 will be the only public meeting with a Q&A on April 11.

Report goes to the Executive Committee in May a week before going to Council and TTC Commission.

The 120-day TRAP is planned to start in July or about with full approval by Q2 2024

Waterfront Toronto is doing 60% design the QQE and starting construction of the new QQ extension in 2026/27.

The QQE East-West Line is plan for 2032 and way too late, as well subject to funding. I still say it could be up and running 3 years after funds are on hand for it and leave the loop to TTC own timetable along with funding for it. I would say we could be looking at a 2028/29 opening day date now.

Real Dates

Its time to interduce real dates when things can start once money is available as well a completion date than saying x time frame. It should be pointed out that these dates are based on having funds on hand in 2024 and will be pushed down the road on a yearly based until funding has been obtain for the project. It should be noted that the cost of the project will go up yearly for every year the project is delay.

Recommendation

My recommendation is that Waterfront Toronto along with TTC build the ROW up to where the east portal is to start first to the point TTC starting building the portal up to just east of Bay St before closing the loop. It will take less than one year to fully rebuilt the west portal as well the connection to the Bay tunnel and the new east Portal. This means that both the 509/510 streetcars will be replace by buses for the one year or less than the 3-4 years doing the full route.

As to when the Union Loop opens will depend on TTC, funding and what surprises that could show up while rebuilding the loop.

TTC and the City needs to look at upgrading Queens Quay sooner than later as well having 2 or more elevators.

Transit First

Waterfront Toronto has wanted to have Transit First in place ahead of the redevelopment of the waterfront to the point development will be completed before transit is in place.

A fair number of the board and the public could be gone by the time QQE goes into service and will never get a chance to ride it.

Because transit is so late, it is keeping people in their cars as well having a major traffic impact city wide, let alone the waterfront.

Good info! Are they going to use the existing fleet of the Flexity Outlooks? Any plan to purchase additional vehicles? I assume no plans to use LRT-type, two-sided LRV vehicles?