Wal-Mart downtown Toronto?

[Johnny Au]

That Wal-Mart store would cannibalize sales from the Wal-Mart Supercentre in Dufferin Mall as well.

 

[Hipster Duck]

I'm just curious to see if you realise that as things stand we as a society can easily reject certain 'business models' without owing any explanations to anyone, so long as we perceive it's in the community's best interest.

What is the community's "best interest" and who is the "community"?

You haven't given me a solid definition of either of them. As I see it, the "best interest" is your interest, and the interests of a handful of people who do not necessarily represent the entire "community" of people who have a stake in Kensington Market.

Saying that we can't exclude Walmart because it's just a business and has certain rights has no basis in our already tightly regulated market.

I am not suggesting that we have a completely libertarian free market where anything goes and all social costs are externalized. However, you can't prove to me that WalMart is any worse than its competitors, big or small, in externalizing those social costs in the pursuit of profit. WalMart might source its goods from dubious Chinese suppliers, but so does everyone else. WalMart might not pay its low-skilled workers a high wage, but neither does anyone else - in fact, you even argued that WalMart pressured other retailers to increase the wage they pay their employees and you thought that was unfair to other retailers.

If WalMart is no worse than anybody else, what is our basis for excluding them?

If the people in Kensington Market see Walmart or Loblaws as unethical monopolistic competition that does not advance their vision of a better place, they are well within their right to reject them.

First of all, there is no such thing as "the people" of Kensington Market, because the people that make KM what it is come from all over the place. If KM relied strictly on the business from residents within its own (amorphous) boundaries, it would not survive. Secondly, the retailers of KM have no right - as in, legal right - to restrict the entry of a private business. For starters, they have no jurisdictional authority and one can argue that the WalMart is being built outside of KM's borders (which themselves are not defined). Secondly, they have no idea what proportion of the people who have interest in KM are against the opening of a WalMart so they can't even invoke a majority rules sort of stance. The whole thing is so slippery that it just boils down to exclusion based on the values of a minority.

 

[W. K. Lis]

That Wal-Mart store would cannibalize sales from the Wal-Mart Supercentre in Dufferin Mall as well.

More likely it would cannibalize from Honest Eds.

 

[nfitz]

More likely it would cannibalize from Honest Eds.

Both I'd think. Though Honest Eds isn't that far from Dufferin Mall; it may well have long since lost many of the shoppers who would switch. It's only a 25 minute walk from Honest Eds to Dufferin Mall. It's still a 15 minute walk from Honest Eds to this location on Bathurst just north of Bloor.

And is this Bathurst location really going to be a large Walmart? I don't see how you'd put anything bigger than a typical Zellers there. More like the Walmart on Gerrard Street near Pape.

Doesn't seem to be a great location really.

 

[urbandreamer]

I think Tiffer is onto something...although honestly I think Walmart is targeting the condo kids further south. Many of them grew up in the suburbs and likely are accustomed to shopping at big box format stores.

I am not against Walmart but rather the appalling architecture of the proposed building.

 

[ShonTron]

I think I'm starting to understand the anti-walmart take in this neighbourhood. Kensington "people" are not against the actual walmart store, they're against the type of people who shop at this store. It once was ok for neighbourhood meetings to whisper about the effects of black people on property values. Today that prejudice seems to have been transformed into a fear of the lower middle class--struggling working-class people who buy disgusting things like un-organic Kraft peanut butter and dare to shop in their sweatpants.

Whoa, partner. You are actually suggesting that opposition to Wal-Mart is based on racism? On classism? That opponents don't want "those kind of people" coming into their community? Egad.

 

[LowPolygon]

I think I'm starting to understand the anti-walmart take in this neighbourhood. Kensington "people" are not against the actual walmart store, they're against the type of people who shop at this store. It once was ok for neighbourhood meetings to whisper about the effects of black people on property values. Today that prejudice seems to have been transformed into a fear of the lower middle class--struggling working-class people who buy disgusting things like un-organic Kraft peanut butter and dare to shop in their sweatpants.

please direct us to the posts that demonstrate, or are suggestive of--even at the inferential level--a fear of, or contempt for, "lower middle class--struggling working-class people who buy disgusting things like un-organic Kraft peanut butter and dare to shop in their sweatpants".

 

[urbandreamer]

People from all classes and walks of life shop in Kensington--students, Annex yuppies, hipsters, new and old Canadians from small town Canada and the suburbs, and increasingly, a ton of recent Mexican & South American immigrants.

I think the major fear--rightly so--is that once Walmart is allowed in other developers/property owners will follow turning Bathurst into big box shopping alley. A real legit concern--just look at Liberty Village, wQw, Bay Street and other generic condo retail corridors.

CB2 at Queen/Bathurst, Loblaws around the corner, Walmart, etc. Boring.

It's almost as if Bathurst will always be a crappy street for the most part; I'd rather see it become another Spadina with a mix of old houses and 6-8s midrises.

 

[the lemur]

Do I really have to dig that far on this thread to find the kind of grossed out disdain for these "people" and their suburban habits that everyone professes to tolerate? How favourable would neighbours greet Honest Ed's if it were newly built today?

Well, if you think it's that easy to find that kind of disdain on this thread for 'the type of people who shop at Wal-Mart' rather objections to Wal-Mart as a business or just the idea of a big-box retail outlet in the proposed location, please provide an example. I can't recall seeing that so far.

As for Honest Ed's, it's a single location of a business that built itself up over time and became part of the neighbourhood and the community. There was some consternation about Dollarama moving into the old Sonic Boom (formerly Bi-Way!) site, but it was never about 'oh noes, the poor will come to shop here' but a question of whether it was what the area really needed/wanted.

 

[LowPolygon]

Ok, who's vision of a "better place"? What does that vision entail? Hipsters buying craft beer and $40 blocks of cheese? As anywhere else, we seem to have sympathy in this city for the poor, envy for the rich and utter contempt for the people who make up the working poor, those disgusting, junk-food eating society-ending walmart shoppers. Do I really have to dig that far on this thread to find the kind of grossed out disdain for these "people" and their suburban habits that everyone professes to tolerate? How favourable would neighbours greet Honest Ed's if it were newly built today?

you keep making this claim, and you keep using the word 'disgusting'.

again, where in this thread are people expressing contempt for "the people who make up the working poor, those disgusting, junk-food eating society-ending walmart shoppers."?

point to a comment that expresses "grossed out disdain for these "people""

also, what do "hipsters buying craft beer and $40 blocks of cheese" have to do with anything? that's called a straw man.

 

[RC8]

Right... let's defend the interests of multinational billionaire corporations to protect the rights of the working class.

The working class would enjoy a much higher quality of life if the money they spend wasn't sucked straight out of their local economy by most of the big players that provide them with services.

Please don't pretend to care about the 'working class', you are defensive about your big box lifestyle being under attack and that's all there is to it.

 

[the lemur]

That was not too hard to find... consternation, concern, what exactly does the area need and or want? The vision for this neighbourhood, you have that all mapped out? I don't mean to sound harsh, but this is exactly the kind of disdainful and presumptive pronouncements I alluded to earlier. Would Honest Ed's be built today?

Being concerned about whether a Dollarama is necessary or desirable simply in terms of demand or need, or even just whether it fits in terms of scale, its impact on existing businesses, etc., is nowhere near the same thing as expressing disdain for 'the kind of people who might shop there'.

As it turns out, the Dollarama on that stretch of Bloor has integrated itself pretty well - it doesn't really compete directly with anything existing (including Honest Ed's) and there was more interest in where Sonic Boom would end up.

Same deal with Starbucks gradually moving in to that area - people didn't want it displacing the old Dooney's café (mediocre as it was), but once that was eventually gone of its own accord, there was no objection to its replacing Pizza Pizza (which moved up the street).

I actually do think Honest Ed's would be built today if Ed Mirvish were alive and making the same impact at the community level. I don't think the area is any more NIMBY or any less accepting than it was before.

Incidentally, Honest Ed's has in the past been the one trying to control what goes on around it, but that's another matter.

 

[freshcutgrass]

Would Honest Ed's be built today?

Don't really need to speculate....where did Sonic Boom move to?

Honest Ed's is not a good example, as it is/was an anomaly. It still survives because of its iconic nature. How long it will survive is unknown. I won't lament the loss of Honest Ed's store so much as I will/do lament the slow decay of Mirvish Village. I don't recall any Walton Villages sprouting up around any Walmarts.

also, what do "hipsters buying craft beer and $40 blocks of cheese" have to do with anything? that's called a straw man.

We should allow this in as an argument, as it is a characterization...no different than the characterization of the so-called "Walmart shopper".

People (hipsters) in their 20's (and sadly still acting that way well into their 30's) may be annoying, but the most annoying parts are fairly benign affectations (beards, full arm tats, rolled cuffs, etc). But their trending habits are actually of a beneficial nature when it comes to all that is wrong with big corporate consumerism. Yea...they might be all into the craft beer scene, but what's wrong with supporting local artisanal business? And craft beer tends to taste way better than Bud Light. So it's win-win (except for big corporations). Hipsters will spend their money on drinking, but I doubt they are spending it on expensive cheeses. That's more for older people like myself, who no longer spends a large percentage of my income drinking and hanging out.

But as someone already mentioned, the demographic of the Kensington shopper is pretty diverse. I don't know how, but I have to say that Kensington has fought off it's gentrification fairly well over the long period of time it has been considered "cool".

 

[spider]

That's it, pick on the one or two odder items.

Surely, I'm not the only one who came away from Walmart scratching my head on why people buy food there. I was in one, once, and having failed to find the item I came for (on the website, but out-of-stock). Any bedsheets (what kind of store only stocks polyester sheets?), I checked out the food, for 2 or 3 things I needed to grab. I couldn't find the brands I use. I couldn't even find a basic staple like organic milk, which even small grocery stores carry.

Now, I confess that I made my first purchase in many years there the other day. A pair of child's soccer shoes. But even then, they only had a single size 13 in stock - but that was one more than the small store nearby, that only had up to 12.5. No choice on colours or styles.

My previous trip to a Walmart was about 4 years previous. A large one, in a major mall (Scarborough Town Centre). I was shocked how shabby it was. The shelves looked like everyone had tossed stuff on the floor, and put it back on again. Hard to find anything. Cat shit wouldn't have surprised me. It would surprise me in the corner stores I frequent though.

The only reason I was in the place, was because it appeared it was the quickest way to get to the Best Buy that was allegedly in the mall. Though when I got to the Walmart doors, and realised the Best Buy was on the other side of a car park, in torrential rain, I gave up, headed for the Scarborough Skytrain, and returned to civilization. Odd place ...

Good news!
I visited a Walmart today and they stock 2 brands of Organic milk in several sizes and BF percentages, also a huge supply of bed sheets in polyester or cotton in several thread counts.

If you dislike Walmart because it is a "Big Box" store why did you want to go to Best Buy, isn't it another "Big Box" store?

 

[spider]

If the Walmart hadn't been there chances are I could have bought the same microwave from a local retailer and my money would have stayed in the community. Sure, I would have paid like $20 more or something, but then the owner of the store may be my customer one day.

Let me open my fridge and see what's in there and around...

OK, here goes:

- Organic free-run eggs
- Organic 4% milk
- Kozlik's Canadian Mustard
- Organic almond butter
- Organic quinoa
- Almond flour
- Organic wheat berries
- Fresh basil
- Preserved Peruvian eggplants
- Zucchini
- Avocado
- Carrots
- Maple butter
- Organic Canadian Emmental cheese
- 4 Year-old Aged Cheddar
- Montreal-style Bagels (from NuBugel)
- Pumpernickel Rye
- Portobello mushrooms
- Whole rye flour
- Mayo

And my favourite cereal is Yogactive (which has nothing to do with yoga but rather with yoghurt). It is not available at Walmart in Ontario.

I tried doing my groceries at Walmart many times over the years (usually when accompanying a friend), and every single time I came out almost empty-handed. I remarkably bought these plantains and avocados once that did not mature over the course of a whole summer. I threw them away after three months!

P.S. I listed as many things as I had the patience to, didn't focus on items I'm unlikely to find at Walmart.

Good news!
I visited a Walmart today to pick up a few things, I was a little short of time but in 5 minutes I was able to find several items on your list;
Free -run eggs
Organic Milk (3.8%)
Fresh Basil, Zucchini, Carrots, & Portobello Mushrooms
Pumpernickel Rye
Mayo
Yogactive cereal (about 4 feet away from my cereal on the same shelf)

Given more time I suppose I could have located more stuff but it is a big store.