Visited Montreal for the first time. Some questions about their Metro system

[nephersir7]

Montreal-Trudeau's $250M underground REM station has been unveiled by the airport authority as part of its expansion plan.

It will be located 35 meters under the airport's new parking structure and it is scheduled to be completed by the end of 2023.

 

[aquateam]

Montreal-Trudeau's $250M underground REM station has been unveiled by the airport authority as part of its expansion plan.

It will be located 35 meters under the airport's new parking structure and it is scheduled to be completed by the end of 2023.

I'm a little disappointed with YUL's transportation plan compared to YYZ's.

Pearson is looking to really increase their transportation mode share, they're talking about re-aligning the Kitchener corridor, connecting to 2 LRT lines, BRT, in addition to the existing airport train. Transit is an integral part of their proposal. Whereas Trudeau airport seems satisfied with the REM connection, and the majority of the expansion seems to be green-washed parking spaces. In fact, it might be more difficult to get to YUL by transit if you're coming from the south west since the non-competition clause of the REM is going to kill off the 747 airport bus (despite all the Turcot work on creating dedicated bus lanes.)

At the very least, I hope that the Trudeau expansion protects for an extension of the REM 1 km south to connect with Dorval circle (for the west island express buses and the Vaudreil-Hudson AMT line.) I know that the REM effectively killed the Train de L'Ouest proposal but it still has value if the ARTM decides not to give up on what remains of their commuter train network.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

35m is awfully deep,I wonder why it has to be that far down?

 

[Cobra]

Montreal-Trudeau's $250M underground REM station has been unveiled by the airport authority as part of its expansion plan.

It will be located 35 meters under the airport's new parking structure and it is scheduled to be completed by the end of 2023.

Yet we're supposed to swallow that a Smarttrack station will cost the same

 

[felix123]

I'm a little disappointed with YUL's transportation plan compared to YYZ's.

Pearson is looking to really increase their transportation mode share, they're talking about re-aligning the Kitchener corridor, connecting to 2 LRT lines, BRT, in addition to the existing airport train. Transit is an integral part of their proposal. Whereas Trudeau airport seems satisfied with the REM connection, and the majority of the expansion seems to be green-washed parking spaces. In fact, it might be more difficult to get to YUL by transit if you're coming from the south west since the non-competition clause of the REM is going to kill off the 747 airport bus (despite all the Turcot work on creating dedicated bus lanes.)

At the very least, I hope that the Trudeau expansion protects for an extension of the REM 300 metres south to connect with Dorval circle (for the west island express buses and the Vaudreil-Hudson AMT line.) I know that the REM effectively killed the Train de L'Ouest proposal but it still has value if the ARTM decides not to give up on what remains of their commuter train network.

I completely agree that the REM really should be extended southward to connect with the V-H line and VIA.
I do think that YUL is quite a lot further ahead in plans than YYZ is though - for example, there's unfortunately a high likelihood that Finch West LRT won't be built at all, never mind a second phase to the airport.
The REM is now under construction, and there have been a lot of good, pragmatic decisions around transit coming out of Quebec in the past couple of years - so I won't count out that extension just yet.
By comparison, work on RER and LRT to YYZ is idling and uncertain.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

I find my self feeling suspicious on the REM costs. It seems too little for what they are building though not wildly so. On the other hand, I can't understand the rather exorbitant costs either they are predicting for the SmartTrack stations. How does a surface station cost that much?

 

[Streety McCarface]

I find my self feeling suspicious on the REM costs. It seems too little for what they are building though not wildly so. On the other hand, I can't understand the rather exorbitant costs either they are predicting for the SmartTrack stations. How does a surface station cost that much?

Land Prices, Geology, higher worker costs, the fact that these stations are 50* as large as they should be.

 

[Filip]

I completely agree that the REM really should be extended southward to connect with the V-H line and VIA.
I do think that YUL is quite a lot further ahead in plans than YYZ is though - for example, there's unfortunately a high likelihood that Finch West LRT won't be built at all, never mind a second phase to the airport.
The REM is now under construction, and there have been a lot of good, pragmatic decisions around transit coming out of Quebec in the past couple of years - so I won't count out that extension just yet.
By comparison, work on RER and LRT to YYZ is idling and uncertain.

YYZ already has a rapid transit link to the airport and it's much faster than the REM (no need to go north, then east, then south to get into the city).

Therefore not sure your argument makes sense.

 

[nephersir7]

YYZ already has a rapid transit link to the airport and it's much faster than the REM (no need to go north, then east, then south to get into the city)

The UPX service is not really faster.

The REM's 22km route to Central Station will have:
- peak hours: 10 minute frequency, 25 minute travel time (10 stops)
- off-peak: 15-20 minute frequency, 20 minute travel time (5 stops)

The UPX's 23.3km route to Union Station has:
- all-day: 15 minute frequency, 25 minute travel time (3 stops)

So, the REM is just as fast, if not faster than the UPX.

The difference is how well both services are integrated to the airport and to the city, how much walking is necessary.

IMHO the UPX service is better integrated to the airport (it isn't 35m underground!), but the REM will make things easier at the other end (two very well integrated downtown stations, better transit connections)

 

[felix123]

YYZ already has a rapid transit link to the airport and it's much faster than the REM (no need to go north, then east, then south to get into the city).

Therefore not sure your argument makes sense.

I wrote that "By comparison, work on RER and LRT to YYZ is idling and uncertain." I am of course hopeful for YYZ's transportation plans, but I don't think anyone would deny that transit planning in the GTA and Ontario as a whole tend to be systematically swept up, and unfortunately out, with the winds of political change.
Other plans for YYZ are exciting, such as a high-speed rail link, but that HSR link is very much nascent at present, and is likely to be dropped entirely if the incumbent provincial party is replaced.

As for the REM vs the UPX, travel time to Gare Centrale on the REM will be 25 minutes on all-stops services, and 20 minutes on express services. The UPX offers service to Union in 22 minutes, which will increase with the new stop at Mt. Dennis. I think the quality of the REM is quite a bit higher than that of the UPX, due to the REM being electric and not diesel, there being 2 platforms on both termini of the REM, and all stations having platform screen doors, as well as direct connectivity to 3 metro lines. The UPX really should be electrified, regardless of the outcome of the RER mega-tender.

 

[felix123]

The UPX service is not really faster.

The REM's 22km route to Central Station will have:
- peak hours: 10 minute frequency, 25 minute travel time (10 stops)
- off-peak: 15-20 minute frequency, 20 minute travel time (5 stops)

Good comparison. I had thought that the plan was to have at most 15 minutes between services to/from YUL (per the link below). The CDPQi's goal is to have peak service operating every 6 minutes (off-peak every 12 minutes) to and from YUL, but that won't happen until "ridership justifies the service increase", which is I suppose a meaningless metric except to say that the capacity is there.

https://rem.info/fr/montreal-centre-aeroport

 

[Filip]

The UPX service is not really faster.

The REM's 22km route to Central Station will have:
- peak hours: 10 minute frequency, 25 minute travel time (10 stops)
- off-peak: 15-20 minute frequency, 20 minute travel time (5 stops)

The UPX's 23.3km route to Union Station has:
- all-day: 15 minute frequency, 25 minute travel time (3 stops)

So, the REM is just as fast, if not faster than the UPX.

The difference is how well both services are integrated to the airport and to the city, how much walking is necessary.

IMHO the UPX service is better integrated to the airport (it isn't 35m underground!), but the REM will make things easier at the other end (two very well integrated downtown stations, better transit connections)

I completely disagree.

First of all YUL is quite a bit closer to the city than YYZ - the fact that the ride time/distance will be almost identical is kind of the point I tried to make above.

Secondly, where do you get integration is poor on the Toronto side? UPX hits Line 2 at Dundas West (currently not integrated, but will be), and Line 1, TTC surface, GO, intercity trains at Union - where integration couldn't be better (it's in the station, +/- 3 mins walking time to get to all the points). There will also be a station built at Eglinton (and Weston will be shuttered) to interchange with Line 5.

 

[Filip]

I wrote that "By comparison, work on RER and LRT to YYZ is idling and uncertain." I am of course hopeful for YYZ's transportation plans, but I don't think anyone would deny that transit planning in the GTA and Ontario as a whole tend to be systematically swept up, and unfortunately out, with the winds of political change.
Other plans for YYZ are exciting, such as a high-speed rail link, but that HSR link is very much nascent at present, and is likely to be dropped entirely if the incumbent provincial party is replaced.

As for the REM vs the UPX, travel time to Gare Centrale on the REM will be 25 minutes on all-stops services, and 20 minutes on express services. The UPX offers service to Union in 22 minutes, which will increase with the new stop at Mt. Dennis. I think the quality of the REM is quite a bit higher than that of the UPX, due to the REM being electric and not diesel, there being 2 platforms on both termini of the REM, and all stations having platform screen doors, as well as direct connectivity to 3 metro lines. The UPX really should be electrified, regardless of the outcome of the RER mega-tender.

Did you Montrealers forget just how long you didn't build just about anything? One rapid transit line and you're acting like you've been ahead of Toronto for a generation.

 

[felix123]

Did you Montrealers forget just how long you didn't build just about anything? One rapid transit line and you're acting like you've been ahead of Toronto for a generation.

Well I live in Toronto, but I also don't take the default position that things are always better here. Sometimes they are, and sometimes they aren't. In the case of the REM link to YUL, it should really just provide Toronto with some local inspiration to make improvements to its own airport train. Last time I took UPX, I walked across the FreshCo parking lot to Dundas West and across to Line 2 - it took several minutes and wasn't ideal.

With a (planned) connection, that will improve things, but again, UPX could be so much better with electrification, as myself and a lot of Torontonians would have liked to see UPX act as a much needed transit service at least until RER actually gets built. The lack of a second platform at Union is the most myopic aspect of all.

I am of course happy for Montréal though as they haven't seen any rapid transit expansion since the metro was extended to Laval in 2007.

 

[Filip]

Well I live in Toronto, but I also don't take the default position that things are always better here. Sometimes they are, and sometimes they aren't. In the case of the REM link to YUL, it should really just provide Toronto with some local inspiration to make improvements to its own airport train. Last time I took UPX, I walked across the FreshCo parking lot to Dundas West and across to Line 2 - it took several minutes and wasn't ideal.

With a (planned) connection, that will improve things, but again, UPX could be so much better with electrification, as myself and a lot of Torontonians would have liked to see UPX act as a much needed transit service at least until RER actually gets built. The lack of a second platform at Union is the most myopic aspect of all.

I am of course happy for Montréal though as they haven't seen any rapid transit expansion since the metro was extended to Laval in 2007.

Why do you need two platforms though? It's a terminal station.