VIA Rail

[crs1026]

Excellent info, as always @Urban Sky

Questions(s). for you, or @reaperexpress

1) Working with the existing infrastructure and freight schedules is there theoretical room for any additional slots for VIA, within the desirable time ranges that could be negotiated wiht CN/CP, in theory?

2) If not, what is the lowest level of infrastructure investment that would be required to open up new slots, (passing track, rail to rail grade separations, switches/turnounts, etc) and would there be any credible case for the investment, when considering dollars to sustained revenue/service gain

3) Would any of the above investments overlap, to a high certainty with any HSR plan, such that they could be considered an 'early work' advancing the later.

4) Finally, is there 'room' and any logic, to using a portion of the existing CP mainline (Bellevillle) route to bypass any congestion in the CN corridor for even a couple of slots a day? There are multiple crossings/connections between Oshsawa and Belleville.

The 2008-2009 expansion plan that Ottawa approved was cut back as costs mounted.... there must have been a next-highest- priority piece of that program that almost got built. The plans for those incremental pieces are no doubt sitting in a drawer somewhere and likely actionable on a short timeline.

Those next-to-do pieces may have higher price tags than the ones that were completed.

From watching various bits of train dispatching over the years, the segment immediately west of Belleville is definitely an impediment - but the missing piece may be the need for a bridge at Moira, to enable freights to clear the existing tracks further west and access the yard

Coteau is likely still high priority piece. I wonder about Liverpool- Darlington also, and again bridges are one key cost driver.

It makes a lot of sense to shift CN freights to the CPKC route to ease congestion (and avoid having to upgrade track speeds on CPKC to VIA requirements) - but few sidings on the CP route are long enough for CN's needs. CP uses fleeting to remove the need for longer sidings, it might take a lot of rearranging to freight achedules to i ject CN trains into that pattern. I suspect the institutional barriers rather than the track geometry is the bedrock here. A bridge too far, it seems.

I have wondered whether all that is needed on the Kingston line might be a few short sidings not unlike the Smiths Falls-Brockville portion, giving CN the ability to run opposing VIA trains on a single track rather than having both tracks occupied by passing VIA trains.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

I was surprised to learn that CPKC Belleville Sub was mainly single track. While there are some hurdles to using it, if we paid for double tracking the subdivisions between Toronto and Montreal,we could increase service on the Corridor. However, ,I doubt either company will allow HSR to be built along their lines. Honestly, the focus should be on HSR. Much else isn't really needed.

 

[reaperexpress]

I think that the implementation of Via's morning non-stop train to Montreal (Train 60) is problematic for a couple reasons.

First of all, it's coupled to Train 50, but since the schedule for 50 isn't being changed, there are no time savings on that trip. If skipping stops saves 30 minutes, the train will need to sit for 30 minutes in Brockville waiting for the scheduled departure time. So the change eliminates ridership from intermediate stations without gaining any ridership from the terminals. This is a short-term issue that could be resolved with a schedule update.

The more fundamental issue, is that trains 50 and 60 are the only trains from Toronto that arrive in Ottawa and Montreal in the morning.
Without train 50, the first train from Kingston doesn't arrive in Ottawa until 13:32 and the first train from Kingston and Cornwall to Montreal doesn't arrive until 14:00:

This schedule change basically eliminates the possibility for people from Kingston and Cornwall to take day trips to Montreal and Ottawa, which is a big deal. I can see why residents of those cities are upset.

Unless an additional morning train is added that makes all stops from Kingston to Montreal (which is unlikely given it would require cancelling an existing trip or negotiating an additional slot), I think it would make more sense to run the Train 60 non-stop from Toronto to Kingston, but still stop in Kingston and Cornwall.

I have no problem with running Train 68 non-stop since trains 66 and 668 are comparable alternatives.

 

[reaperexpress]

3) Would any of the above investments overlap, to a high certainty with any HSR plan, such that they could be considered an 'early work' advancing the later.

Like @Urban Sky said, the main bottlenecks are in places that would likely be entirely bypassed by HSR (e.g. Smiths Falls), so it wouldn't make sense to invest in them now.

However, there are investments that would be necessary for HSR which would also provide speed/reliability benefits in the meantime, even if they don't actually increase the number of round trips.

Most notably, adding a proper second platform at Fallowfield station (with level boarding and expansion room for a third track) would enable trains to meet at the station where they need to stop anyway, rather than needing to stop just out side of the station to wait for the oncoming train, then roll forward and stop again to serve the platform.

Between Fallowfield and Ottawa, track speed upgrades are desperately needed. The HSR study is probably deciding whether or not to replace/realign the single-track Rideau River bridge, but in any case they will definitely want to increase the track speed east of the bridge (currently 45 mph / 72 km/h) and expand double-track.

Via's upgrade program for Ottawa station would also align well with HSR. Phase 1A of the program is complete, but Phase 1B was never funded. Phase 2 would have included a new south entrance to the station, which is essential to enable high-density development around the station.

 

[smallspy]

The 2008-2009 expansion plan that Ottawa approved was cut back as costs mounted.... there must have been a next-highest- priority piece of that program that almost got built. The plans for those incremental pieces are no doubt sitting in a drawer somewhere and likely actionable on a short timeline.

Those next-to-do pieces may have higher price tags than the ones that were completed.

From watching various bits of train dispatching over the years, the segment immediately west of Belleville is definitely an impediment - but the missing piece may be the need for a bridge at Moira, to enable freights to clear the existing tracks further west and access the yard

Coteau is likely still high priority piece. I wonder about Liverpool- Darlington also, and again bridges are one key cost driver.

It makes a lot of sense to shift CN freights to the CPKC route to ease congestion (and avoid having to upgrade track speeds on CPKC to VIA requirements) - but few sidings on the CP route are long enough for CN's needs. CP uses fleeting to remove the need for longer sidings, it might take a lot of rearranging to freight achedules to i ject CN trains into that pattern. I suspect the institutional barriers rather than the track geometry is the bedrock here. A bridge too far, it seems.

I have wondered whether all that is needed on the Kingston line might be a few short sidings not unlike the Smiths Falls-Brockville portion, giving CN the ability to run opposing VIA trains on a single track rather than having both tracks occupied by passing VIA trains.

- Paul

There are definitely aspects of that program that were cut away but could still be built. For instance, a rethinking of the area around Coteau was in the cards.....

And there's certainly the fact that all of those improvements in that 2007 project were planned primarily with CN's operations in mind, and VIA's secondary.

Might it be a way of appeasing CN enough for them to drop the silly games with the grade crossing predictors? It would be interesting to see if they were amenable to the idea.

I think that the implementation of Via's morning non-stop train to Montreal (Train 60) is problematic for a couple reasons.

First of all, it's coupled to Train 50, but since the schedule for 50 isn't being changed, there are no time savings on that trip. If skipping stops saves 30 minutes, the train will need to sit for 30 minutes in Brockville waiting for the scheduled departure time. So the change eliminates ridership from intermediate stations without gaining any ridership from the terminals. This is a short-term issue that could be resolved with a schedule update.

VIA has written that 50 will operate on the same non-stop schedule as 60 up to Brockville. https://service-pages.viarail.ca/ex...h=9Yg90RPh-Rkueqs4dJQsZRSPKcD-VuQqrPp7MNCjiMM

Dan

 

[Urban Sky]

First of all, it's coupled to Train 50, but since the schedule for 50 isn't being changed, there are no time savings on that trip. If skipping stops saves 30 minutes, the train will need to sit for 30 minutes in Brockville waiting for the scheduled departure time.

VIA has written that 50 will operate on the same non-stop schedule as 60 up to Brockville. https://service-pages.viarail.ca/ex...h=9Yg90RPh-Rkueqs4dJQsZRSPKcD-VuQqrPp7MNCjiMM

Dan‘s link has the answer to this particular concern expressed by @reaperexpress, even if it of course doesn’t sufficiently address any of his other very valid concerns:

PS: @reaperexpress, the 18:48 schedule you show for 668 only seems to be valid on September 28. The schedule seems to return to the current 18:08 departure on September 29…

 

[reaperexpress]

VIA has written that 50 will operate on the same non-stop schedule as 60 up to Brockville. https://service-pages.viarail.ca/ex...h=9Yg90RPh-Rkueqs4dJQsZRSPKcD-VuQqrPp7MNCjiMM

Clearly I know that already, given that I was talking about the elimination of the stop in Kingston. There were things that were valid to correct about my post, but this was not one of them.

Dan‘s link has the answer to this particular concern expressed by @reaperexpress, even if it of course doesn’t sufficiently address any of his other very valid concerns:

View attachment 684173

Thanks for pointing that out! So it turns out the issue I described for Toronto-Ottawa passengers is resolved, but the issue for intermediate stations is even worse than I thought. Brockville and Smiths Falls losing the only morning train to Ottawa is brutal - those cities are very much in Ottawa's sphere of influence, especially Smiths Falls. I'm sure many people moved to Smiths Falls with the expectation that they could take the train into Ottawa in the morning.

PS: @reaperexpress, the 18:48 schedule you show for 668 only seems to be valid on September 28. The schedule seems to return to the current 18:08 departure on September 29…

Oops! Good catch. Here is the corrected timetable. I've also added the Ottawa-Montreal trains for context.

 

[dowlingm]

It might be best that phase 1b at Ottawa was delayed as those platforms don’t look long enough any more…

 

[reaperexpress]

It might be best that phase 1b at Ottawa was delayed as those platforms don’t look long enough any more…

to make a platform longer you just need to add more platform adjacent to the existing bit. No need to undo any work that was done. It appears they left plenty of room for longer platforms.

 

[Urban Sky]

Haven‘t seen any other confirmation yet, but really not impressed, if true:

Direct service Pilot Project postponed​

Pilot project of direct service between Toronto and Montreal that set to launch on Sep 29 will be postponed due to operational constraints. Passengers will be informed individually.

Train 60/61/68/69 will continue to stop at intermediate stops until further notice.

https://groups.io/g/Canadian-Passenger-Rail/message/102172

 

[Admiral Beez]

In late October midweek I’m taking train 59 from Belleville to Union. It’s scheduled to depart at 8:51 pm, but I anticipated it would be at least 15 min late, giving more time to get there. But when I look online for the train today, it’s right on time. Would that be because it’s Sunday today?

 

[reaperexpress]

In late October midweek I’m taking train 59 from Belleville to Union. It’s scheduled to depart at 8:51 pm, but I anticipated it would be at least 15 min late, giving more time to get there. But when I look online for the train today, it’s right on time. Would that be because it’s Sunday today?

View attachment 684473

It could be an LRC set, or a Venture set that has 32 axles. Those are not subject to the speed restrictions.

You can tell what type of train it is and how long the train is by looking at the seat selection chart. Ventures are identifiable by the area hatched out for the cab in the first or last coach.

Regardless of the train type, Ottawa trains are less affected by the CN speed restrictions than Montreal trains, because a smaller portion of the route is owned by CN.

That said, CN isn't the only one who creates delays for Via. In terms of real-time dispatching, Metrolinx actually seems to be much worse to Via than CN. See for example the progression of train 59 on the 15th of September:

Similarly, today Via 59 made it all the way to Eglinton station on time, but Metrolinx decided to route the train behind a GO local train, creating about a 10-minute delay to the Via train instead of just letting the Via train pass by on the express track that was available.

Here is the on-time performance of Train 59 over the past two weeks according to https://asm.transitdocs.com/

 

[dowlingm]

That said, CN isn't the only one who creates delays for Via. In terms of real-time dispatching, Metrolinx actually seems to be much worse to Via than CN. See for example the progression of train 59 on the 15th of September:

The VIA was late departing Oshawa and so this was presumably the first available slot.

Similarly, today Via 59 made it all the way to Eglinton station on time, but Metrolinx decided to route the train behind a GO local train, creating about a 10-minute delay to the Via train instead of just letting the Via train pass by on the express track that was available.

This one is a bit more dubious if VIA was in fact on time at that point, but how likely is it that a dispatcher would not route over the express if it were in fact available - what’s in it for the dispatcher?

That said, this whole business shows how dicey it is to expect HSR OTP to be reasonable into termini it doesn’t control when existing conventional service struggles as it is and if future LSE/ST is actually built as 2+2 not slow fast fast slow

 

[TwinHuey]

September 28

I was testing out my new drone over the Highland Creek bridge on the Waterfront Trail, wasn't expecting a Via to slide into the frame. Figured I'd drop it here.

 

[reaperexpress]

The VIA was late departing Oshawa and so this was presumably the first available slot.

Unlikely. There are no eastbound Via trains that late in the evening, so the express track is always available for westbound Via trains to overtake whatever GO train they're stuck behind.

This one is a bit more dubious if VIA was in fact on time at that point, but how likely is it that a dispatcher would not route over the express if it were in fact available - what’s in it for the dispatcher?

From my experience riding Via trains into Toronto, it is extremely common for dispatchers to fail to let Via trains pass GO trains even when the express track is available. Usually what happens is that they route the Via train over the express track so it overtakes the GO train, but then hold it at Scarborough or Danforth and make it wait for the GO Train to catch up again and pull back in front. Yesterday it appears they did that and held the train at Scarborough.

Dispatchers apparently do this because they are only evaluated based on on-time performance for GO trains. There is no performance metric for Via trains. So even when the Via train is in front of the GO train and travelling twice as fast, they still stop the Via train to let the GO train catch up and go first. Because they think there's a slight chance that the GO train might need to wait a few seconds for the switch to change if the Via train goes through the junction first.

That said, this whole business shows how dicey it is to expect HSR OTP to be reasonable into termini it doesn’t control when existing conventional service struggles as it is and if future LSE/ST is actually built as 2+2 not slow fast fast slow

Exactly. Another example is that Metrolinx claims it is impossible to run express trains on LSE since the 3rd track is out of service west of Danforth. Well in the future configuration it will be out of service west of Scarborough with Stouffville taking over 2 of the 4 tracks, so are they saying they can't run express trains in the future?