VIA Rail

[micheal_can]

I thought the original contract was for 5 and 7 car sets, but then only was 5 car sets. Seems a lot of this could have been avoided if they initially got those 7 car sets from the beginning. Now,hopefully they can get enough cars to make up enough 7 car sets to allow the retirement of the legacy fleet, and it not cost an arm and a leg.

 

[dowlingm]

It seems to me that the HEP fleet's days are more severely 'numbered'. Most rail enthusiasts thought they would be the last fleet to go: Renaissance, LRC then HEP.
However:

• there are only 3 HEP trains in use plus a guard train.
• LRC fleet is 10 trains with one guard train.
• Ventures are 13 with two guards.

With spring cancellations, there are now 26, down from 28, trains in the Corridor rotation. That's only four legacy trains needed based on your number of 22 augmented Venture sets.

Furthermore, we keep talking and thinking about more Venture cars being ordered. The Siemens Sacramento plant is busy. Even if more cars were ordered today, it's likely a two-year timeline to completion? How would this fit in with the government's current priorities and budgeting? Is it even a thing?

It makes far more sense to me to flog a fleet which is “available for a limited time” (the LRCs) than one which will be needed (at least in part) through 2035, especially if HEP1 cars need to start permanently replacing Renaissance coaches so that remaining parts can be dedicated to the other Ren car types.

Did all the various HEP1/2 refurb programs finish or are there still cars in that process?

 

[smallspy]

There are enough Budds and F40PH-2's on the corridor to merge the existing Ventures into 8 car trains and keep service running while new trains are ordered iirc. They can last another 5 years.

There's not.

Go check the train cycling sheets - there are only 3 Budd sets in service on any given day.

A lot of them are currently out getting work in order to make them last another 10-plus years. VIA's timing of this couldn't have been any worse.

As I recall from the equipment cycling charts that were posted here previously (can't find them at the moment), Via was already operating some 7-car LRC sets on Toronto-Montreal services, so it makes sense to switch those to 7-car Venture sets and redeploy those LRCs on shorter trains where they can save a Siemens set from being affected by the speed restrictions.

There are only two trainsets that run that length - they are used on 70-64 and 65-75. All other trainsets are shorter.

It seems to me that the HEP fleet's days are more severely 'numbered'. Most rail enthusiasts thought they would be the last fleet to go: Renaissance, LRC then HEP.
However:

• there are only 3 HEP trains in use plus a guard train.
• LRC fleet is 10 trains with one guard train.
• Ventures are 13 with two guards.

They aren't. The HEP2 fleet will hang around in Corridor service until the new long distance fleet arrives, and there will be cars in that order that will be used to replace them.

That said.......VIA has shipped off many of them for much-needed work. And as I wrote above, their timing couldn't have been worse.

Dan

 

[reaperexpress]

There are only two trainsets that run that length - they are used on 70-64 and 65-75. All other trainsets are shorter.

Yes... And like I said those trips are currently run by legacy sets. It makes sense for VIA to assemble two or three Siemens sets to operate those rotations instead, to minimize the effects of speed restrictions.

Well, they tested one train one day. Have we heard of others being lengthened? Knowing VIA, there will be need to be hundreds of miles of testing of the augmented train.

Sorry I guess I overspoke. Via has assembled at least one set in a 7 car config, presumably for testing, presumably with the intent of using it between Toronto and Montreal.

 

[nfitz]

Knowing VIA, there will be need to be hundreds of miles of testing of the augmented train.

Why? It's designed for 7-car trains. Aren't any of Amtrak's 7-car sets operational? They've even ordered 8-car trainsets.

Though hundreds of mile of testing can be achieved by running a 7-car trainset from Montreal to Toronto and back.

It's CN I fear who'd want to do more testing.

 

[smallspy]

Yes... And like I said those trips are currently run by legacy sets. It makes sense for VIA to assemble two or three Siemens sets to operate those rotations instead, to minimize the effects of speed restrictions.

Except that those trains will be equipped with legacy equipment even after the rollout of the Siemens sets are complete and the LRC cars are removed from service.

This is why the HEP2 cars are not going anywhere for the foreseeable future.

Dan

 

[reaperexpress]

Except that those trains will be equipped with legacy equipment even after the rollout of the Siemens sets are complete and the LRC cars are removed from service.

This is why the HEP2 cars are not going anywhere for the foreseeable future.

I don't think equipment allocation is an unquestionable law of the universe. When they originally made the fleet plan there were no restrictions on Siemens trains. Now there are. It makes sense to revisit the fleet allocation to minimize impacts on the people who are still riding Via for some reason, and to recapture riders (such as me) who have completely given up on Via due to its now chronic unreliability. Via's on-time performance is below 30%, and it's pretty common to have delays of an hour, which is more than the time difference between the train and a bus. Why would I take Via Rail, when I could ride Red Arrow for half the price in greater comfort? In the past I'd take Via because it had a time advantage, but that's no longer the case.

Red Arrow bus seats, notably using 2+1 seating layout:

In your opinion, is the best use of the HEP equipment - which will be the only equipment not subject to speed restrictions at level crossings - 7-car trains? Even though 7-car sets are the only type of train where Siemens sets would be able to operate without speed restrictions?

 

[Bordercollie]

I don't think equipment allocation is an unquestionable law of the universe. When they originally made the fleet plan there were no restrictions on Siemens trains. Now there are. It makes sense to revisit the fleet allocation to minimize impacts on the people who are still riding Via for some reason, and to recapture riders (such as me) who have completely given up on Via due to its now chronic unreliability.

In your opinion, is the best use of the HEP equipment - which will be the only equipment not subject to speed restrictions at level crossings - 7-car trains? Even though 7-car sets are the only type of train where Siemens sets would be able to operate without speed restrictions?

The problem with 7 car trains is you will need to cycle cab cars and locomotives since the wear and tear will be different.
But today since they are out of service that's okay but once it's fixed what do they do? Would it not be better to J train all trains going east? At least the wear and tear will be even. But the extra axles and fuel is a waste. At least it's less work to cycle full train sets rather than breaking up can cars and locomotives and swapping them out.

 

[Trackside_Treasure]

The problem with 7 car trains is you will need to cycle cab cars and locomotives since the wear and tear will be different.
But today since they are out of service that's okay but once it's fixed what do they do? Would it not be better to J train all trains going east? At least the wear and tear will be even. But the extra axles and fuel is a waste. At least it's less work to cycle full train sets rather than breaking up can cars and locomotives and swapping them out.

That would mean giving up some eastbound slots that CN has graciously and magnanimously given to VIA - and due to the Train Services Agreement currently in discussion, is something VIA is wont to do.

Back in the eighties, CN kept a switcher and crew, plus carmen, at Brockville to build westbound trains when eastbounds were analogous to today's eastbound J-trains. Today, CN will rarely send out rescue units, never mind marshalling trains en route for VIA with its scant Human Resources.

CN's doublavays (60/50 and 62/52) were an innovative way to use Venture trains (combining them was initially VIA said they would never do due to safety concerns) and this type of innovation should be used by VIA more often!!

 

[Bordercollie]

That would mean giving up some eastbound slots that CN has graciously and magnanimously given to VIA - and due to the Train Services Agreement currently in discussion, is something VIA is wont to do.

Back in the eighties, CN kept a switcher and crew, plus carmen, at Brockville to build westbound trains when eastbounds were analogous to today's eastbound J-trains. Today, CN will rarely send out rescue units, never mind marshalling trains en route for VIA with its scant Human Resources.

CN's doublavays (60/50 and 62/52) were an innovative way to use Venture trains (combining them was initially VIA said they would never do due to safety concerns) and this type of innovation should be used by VIA more often!!

Could they get the ontime performance to be good enough to meet at Brockville going westbound? And J the trains there to Toronto?

 

[smallspy]

I don't think equipment allocation is an unquestionable law of the universe. When they originally made the fleet plan there were no restrictions on Siemens trains. Now there are.

You're right - the allocations shouldn't be seen as immutable law.

But neither should CN's ridiculous operating and "safety" tactics.

They will go away eventually. Regardless of anything else, the state of VIA's long-term health depends on it. And at that point, 5-car Siemens sets will then become the norm in the Corridor and operate as they were always intended to. And the HEP2 sets will be used on certain specific trains where it makes sense to.

Dan

 

[reaperexpress]

You're right - the allocations shouldn't be seen as immutable law.

But neither should CN's ridiculous operating and "safety" tactics.

They will go away eventually. Regardless of anything else, the state of VIA's long-term health depends on it. And at that point, 5-car Siemens sets will then become the norm in the Corridor and operate as they were always intended to. And the HEP2 sets will be used on certain specific trains where it makes sense to.

Yes they will go away eventually, but that is clearly not happening imminently. In the meantime, if Via has any respect for its customers, it will make adjustments to minimize the impacts of the ridiculous speed restrictions. The financial compensation they might win from CN in a court case by demonstrating their drop in OTP will not come anywhere close to recovering the loss in revenue caused by destroying what little confidence the public still had in Via's ability to provide service.

 

[Urban Sky]

Yes they will go away eventually, but that is clearly not happening imminently. In the meantime, if Via has any respect for its customers, it will make adjustments to minimize the impacts of the ridiculous speed restrictions. The financial compensation they might win from CN in a court case by demonstrating their drop in OTP will not come anywhere close to recovering the loss in revenue caused by destroying what little confidence the public still had in Via's ability to provide service.

Given that they seem to need to „slaughter“ a full 5-car trainset to extend another 5-car trainset to a 7-car train, I don‘t see how they could possibly create more than 3 such sets. And a CN which already seems rather malicious could easily increase the minimum axle count further, restarting the same game.

The only real lever VIA controls is to extend it‘s journey times, which hard-codes a certain cycling plans and poses severe risks that CN would deny them to return to the old travel times.

It‘s easy to declare that VIA should resolve the situation, but much more difficult to actually identify a strategy which makes VIA‘s passengers better off in the short, medium and long run. Only the spineless paperpushers at TC can resolve this situation, by finally proving that there is such thing as a public safety regulator in the Canadian railroad sector. But we already know since Lac-Megantic that such thing does not exist and the industry effectively regulates itself…

 

[crs1026]

Clearly, if the only remedy is to wait three years and hope for a favourable ruling from the courts, CN has won.

The issue becomes one of damage control.

Buying 64 more coaches to fill out all 32 sets to 7 cars seems unlikely.

Shunt activators are still under development, I presume?

I wonder if VIA can find even a dozen non-venture shells that can be inserted in consists without carrying passengers, and how much it would cost to install compatible couplers and jumpers, to round consists up to 7 cars without stealing from other venture sets. Might not be pretty, but unless the braking or banking is absolutely incompatible (I have a hard time believing that would be the case) these might be operable even at 80 mph without the slow 45mph restriction.

And yes reduce a few consists to three cars, and use them where the schedule permits, to round up some Venture sets to 7 passenger carrying coaches. Some runs will benefit from the added seats, it's a complication for fleet rotation - but this is damage control..

And hope the next government has more backbone.

- Paul

 

[reaperexpress]

Given that they seem to need to „slaughter“ a full 5-car trainset to extend another 5-car trainset to a 7-car train, I don‘t see how they could possibly create more than 3 such sets.

The question at hand is whether two or three 7-car Siemens sets should be assembled for the trips that are 7 cars anyway.

To expand a 5-car set to a 7-car set, Via needs one additional economy car and one business car. That means that three 5-car sets can be reorganized to create two 7-car sets, with one cab car and one locomotive left over.

Meanwhile the two existing 7-car sets can be reorganized into three 4- or 5-car sets with the addition of a locomotive. My understanding is that the LRC and Ren coaches are being retired more urgently than the P42 locomotives, so it should be possible to temporarily delay the retirement of one P42 locomotive until the CN restrictions are resolved.

So yes, assembling two 7-car Siemens sets would reduce the number of Siemens sets by 1. And it might enable the number of legacy sets to be increased by 1. Which overall I would consider to be an improvement since it would enable all 5 sets involved to be immune to CN's restrictions rather than just 2 of the sets currently.

And a CN which already seems rather malicious could easily increase the minimum axle count further, restarting the same game.

We have not seen any evidence that CN introduced the speed restrictions with the specific intent to delay Via. All the evidence provided suggested that the restrictions were introduced due to incompetence among CN management in the form of unfamiliarity with Via operations and unfamiliarity with the need to conduct a risk assessment before implementing a network-wide policy that affects operator workloads. There is no reason to believe that CN would increase the minimum number of axles in response to Via assembling a couple sets that conform to CN's request for 32 axles. It's worth noting that Via already operates two daily trips with 48 axles (50/60 and 52/62), yet CN has not increased their minimum to 48 axles.

The only real lever VIA controls is to extend it‘s journey times, which hard-codes a certain cycling plans and poses severe risks that CN would deny them to return to the old travel times.

It‘s easy to declare that VIA should resolve the situation, but much more difficult to actually identify a strategy which makes VIA‘s passemgers better off in the short, medium and long run. Only the spineless paperpushers at TC can resolve this situation, by finally proving that there is such thing as a public safety regulator in the Canadian railroad sector. But we already know since Lac-Megantic that such thing does not exist and the industry effectively regulates itself…

I never claimed that assembling two or three 7-car Siemens sets would "resolve the situation", I claimed that it would reduce the impacts. Do you disagree that using Siemens sets on the only equipment rotations that would allow Siemens sets to avoid the CN speed restrictions would reduce the impacts of the speed restrictions?