VIA Rail

[smallspy]

The Branchline magazine apparently reported at least two such consists in June 2002:

20th anniversary of first Ren trips

groups.io

Then I stand very corrected. My apologies.

I was surprised that cabs were signed off as full length passenger spec in a new build consist. The one thing about having a cab which has no or limited seating is that it does provide more buffer in the event of a collision, particularly when sharing track with freight locomotives with limited or no CEM (see Selby rail crash). The space could have been used for baggage or alternatively for HEP generation. Another upside of more storage space would be the facility to carry more food/fluids during inclement weather...

And of course, the decision to go with a shorter consist to save money is not exactly working out given the present axle count issues. Of course, the risks in both cases would be reduced if we could get serious on significantly reducing grade crossings on track >80mph (to start with)

And yet GO Transit does it at virtually the same speeds, so why do you figure that VIA should be any different?

Dan

 

[dowlingm]

Then I stand very corrected. My apologies.


And yet GO Transit does it at virtually the same speeds, so why do you figure that VIA should be any different?

Dan

Point taken. That said, given the relationship of energy and velocity, nudging a bit over 80 here and there is a bit different to long stretches of 95-100mph, or more. While the current GO situation is not great, hopefully the deployment of ETCS will provide more protection against that eventuality for GO, whereas VIA are barrelling through the countryside protected by CN track circuits and their wits.

 

[smallspy]

Point taken. That said, given the relationship of energy and velocity, nudging a bit over 80 here and there is a bit different to long stretches of 95-100mph, or more. While the current GO situation is not great, hopefully the deployment of ETCS will provide more protection against that eventuality for GO, whereas VIA are barrelling through the countryside protected by CN track circuits and their wits.

GO regularly exceeds 90mph.

And on top of that does so with a 12 car train, which is going to have a LOT more kinetic energy than one of the VIA sets even at 100mph.

Dan

 

[Urban Sky]

VIA creates its own crowding. There is no need to line up at Ottawa.

Of all the airline practices VIA keeps copying from airports and airlines, I’m surprised they still haven’t discovered their zig-zag crowd control barriers you can apparently even order on Amazon:

I was travelling across Germany a year or two ago and didn't totally understand their ticketing system and so ended up without a permanent seat for most of the trip. Ended up hanging out in the bar car for most of the trip drinking pints and hanging out with DB staff. A very enlightening trip, although after a few beers Berlin Hauptbahnhof becomes very confusing!

Tickets generally don’t include a reservation, which can be purchased (together with the ticket or separately) through Deutsche Bahn’s website, App or ticket machines. There is no compulsory reservation, so you can still enter a train without one, but that means you have no guaranteed seat.

Then I stand very corrected. My apologies.

No need to apologize! I was very surprised as well and and I am told that the baggage cars appeared only a few months later, by January 2023.

And yet GO Transit does it at virtually the same speeds, so why do you figure that VIA should be any different?

Dan

For what it’s worth, the FRA allows “Passenger Occupied Lead Cars” for up to 125 mph (200 km/h) in mixed traffic (Tier I) with freight and on dedicated passenger lines (Tier III) for up to 220 mph (350 km/h):

https://railroads.dot.gov/sites/fra.dot.gov/files/fra_net/17786/Lauby%20-%20FRA%20%26%20the%20Next%20Generation%20of%20High%20Speed%20Rail%20Equipment.pdf

 

[smallspy]

For what it’s worth, the FRA allows “Passenger Occupied Lead Cars” for up to 125 mph (200 km/h) in mixed traffic (Tier I) with freight and on dedicated passenger lines (Tier III) for up to 220 mph (350 km/h):
View attachment 615667
View attachment 615668

https://railroads.dot.gov/sites/fra.dot.gov/files/fra_net/17786/Lauby%20-%20FRA%20%26%20the%20Next%20Generation%20of%20High%20Speed%20Rail%20Equipment.pdf

It needs to. Any wording otherwise would exclude the use of EMUs - which by their very nature have "passenger occupied lead cars".

Dan

 

[Urban Sky]

It needs to. Any wording otherwise would exclude the use of EMUs - which by their very nature have "passenger occupied lead cars".

Dan

Exactly! If we want to prevent head-on collisions, we need to stop obsessing about crash mitigation and finally start investing into crash avoidance (i.e., train control systems designed for this purpose). Even the US have managed to introduce train control systems, despite massive industry push-back!

 

[roger1818]

If we assume that the high speed rail station will be at Tremblay, do you think they'll keep the existing station building? I used to live in Ottawa, and there are many things I like about the current building. It's very light-filled and open concept. The LRT makes getting downtown easy, (and the east and west ends too once the new extensions open). It also doesn't have the zoo of commuters that Union or Gare Centrale have, which is nice.

However, I found that at busy times people were lined up almost out the door, and I can't see the current building having enough capacity for HSR.

The easiest thing would be to find ways to discourage people from lining up prior to boarding. There is plenty of seating in the station (unlike Gare Central or Union Station) and with reserved seats on the train and ample overhead "bin" space, there really is no need to queue up prior to boarding to be the first one onboard. As I have said before, this is just a matter of people just being sheep. A simple announcement like, "Train XX will begin boarding in Y minutes. Please take a seat until boarding commences." would do wonders.

I'd love to see them build an extension to the existing building, perhaps on the parking lot to the west, which would be closer to the LRT station. If they removed the cafe and offices on the west side of the station, they could build a twin to the current building in the same architectural style. Then they could build a new tunnel south of the tracks to a new park and ride for cars and buses.

No need to build an extension. If VIA needs more space, they could just stop leasing out office space in the western half of the building and turn it into an lounge extension, adding an entrance close to the O-Train station. If the station is that busy, they could probably lease out some retail space.

 

[crs1026]

The easiest thing would be to find ways to discourage people from lining up prior to boarding. There is plenty of seating in the station (unlike Gare Central or Union Station) and with reserved seats on the train and ample overhead "bin" space, there really is no need to queue up prior to boarding to be the first one onboard. As I have said before, this is just a matter of people just being sheep. A simple announcement like, "Train XX will begin boarding in Y minutes. Please take a seat until boarding commences." would do wonders.

There have been articles about similar problems in air travel, people congregating at the gate are reportedly referred to as “gate lice”.by some airline workers. The problem at airports is quite directly tied to competition for overhead luggage space…. And the mentality may carry over in travellers’ minds to the railway.
There may be a disfunctional urge in some peoples’ minds to be “first to board”….But I have some sympathy for the traveller in that seating in a waiting area especially at a distance from the gate is risky…. Too often, activity at the gate is badly announced or managed, waiting areas are overlooked by gate staff, pa’s dont work well or boarding announcements are garbled by unfamiliar accents or bad pronunciation…and the passenger who is too compliant may risk not boarding at all. I will admit that I hover around the gate when I travel, and I avoid the Panorama Lounges altogether for this reason. The most reassuring experience is to make it onto the platform, and (if the train is not yet arrived) find where my car will stop - aided by good signage and electronic display boards. This isn’t infallible either, but it’s less stressful during the preboard period.
Call me anxious, but I am not alone.

- Paul

 

[DSCToronto]

There have been articles about similar problems in air travel, people congregating at the gate are reportedly referred to as “gate lice”.by some airline workers. The problem at airports is quite directly tied to competition for overhead luggage space…. And the mentality may carry over in travellers’ minds to the railway.
There may be a disfunctional urge in some peoples’ minds to be “first to board”….But I have some sympathy for the traveller in that seating in a waiting area especially at a distance from the gate is risky…. Too often, activity at the gate is badly announced or managed, waiting areas are overlooked by gate staff, pa’s dont work well or boarding announcements are garbled by unfamiliar accents or bad pronunciation…and the passenger who is too compliant may risk not boarding at all. I will admit that I hover around the gate when I travel, and I avoid the Panorama Lounges altogether for this reason. The most reassuring experience is to make it onto the platform, and (if the train is not yet arrived) find where my car will stop - aided by good signage and electronic display boards. This isn’t infallible either, but it’s less stressful during the preboard period.
Call me anxious, but I am not alone.

- Paul

Waiting ON the platform would be my choice too but at Union is really not feasible due to the very narrow platforms.

 

[Urban Sky]

Waiting ON the platform would be my choice too but at Union is really not feasible due to the very narrow platforms.

The even bigger bottleneck (also at Gare Centrale and in Ottawa except the new platform at the latter) is the vertical accesses which only allow unidirectional passenger flows…

 

[roger1818]

There have been articles about similar problems in air travel, people congregating at the gate are reportedly referred to as “gate lice”.by some airline workers. The problem at airports is quite directly tied to competition for overhead luggage space…. And the mentality may carry over in travellers’ minds to the railway.
There may be a disfunctional urge in some peoples’ minds to be “first to board”….But I have some sympathy for the traveller in that seating in a waiting area especially at a distance from the gate is risky…. Too often, activity at the gate is badly announced or managed, waiting areas are overlooked by gate staff, pa’s dont work well or boarding announcements are garbled by unfamiliar accents or bad pronunciation…and the passenger who is too compliant may risk not boarding at all. I will admit that I hover around the gate when I travel, and I avoid the Panorama Lounges altogether for this reason. The most reassuring experience is to make it onto the platform, and (if the train is not yet arrived) find where my car will stop - aided by good signage and electronic display boards. This isn’t infallible either, but it’s less stressful during the preboard period.
Call me anxious, but I am not alone.

- Paul

I certainly sympathize with those who are afraid to miss the announcement, but at the Ottawa station, all of the seating is up near the platform doors. I have never had an issue finding a seat and can easily see when they start boarding. There also aren't many trains, and they are clearly announced with a recorded message, listing all the stations the train stops at. For someone who has never taken a train, sure this could be unnerving, but for even an occasional train traveler, it should be obvious.

 

[Ratazana]

The easiest thing would be to find ways to discourage people from lining up prior to boarding. There is plenty of seating in the station (unlike Gare Central or Union Station) and with reserved seats on the train and ample overhead "bin" space, there really is no need to queue up prior to boarding to be the first one onboard. As I have said before, this is just a matter of people just being sheep. A simple announcement like, "Train XX will begin boarding in Y minutes. Please take a seat until boarding commences." would do wonders.



No need to build an extension. If VIA needs more space, they could just stop leasing out office space in the western half of the building and turn it into a lounge extension, adding an entrance close to the O-Train station. If the station is that busy, they could probably lease out some retail space.

I love the Ottawa station. Especially that spiral ramp.
In terms of Union. I wonder if they could do some changes to create a better waiting space (see below):
- block off or flip the GO platforms access/escalators.
- the red shaded areas will be freed up to add seatings.
- improve visual cues (VIA branding, colouring) in the interior to intuitively guide passengers towards Via platforms at the end of the concourse. (See green lines)
- wall off the paths (see the red Xs) connecting the departure and arrival areas. This would guide/force arriving pax to walk towards the original arrival meet and greet zone. (See red lines).

 

[micheal_can]

My limited experiences at Union, Central and Ottawa is that they were never built to handle the way we board now a days. Part of the challenge is that some of these stations (Central) have thru trains, so the train cannot dwell long enough to do a staggered boarding. Most platforms are not that wide, so waiting there isn't a safe option either.

What might work, ad I saw this on the REM, is platform doors. With the new fleet along the Corridor, there is no reason that once the rest is retired platform doors could not be erected for the platforms serving Corridor service. For Union and Central, having a platform for the LDS without platform doors also makes some sense, unless there is a way to standardize them as well.

 

[Urban Sky]

I love the Ottawa station. Especially that spiral ramp.
In terms of Union. I wonder if they could do some changes to create a better waiting space (see below):
- block off or flip the GO platforms access/escalators.
- the red shaded areas will be freed up to add seatings.
- improve visual cues (VIA branding, colouring) in the interior to intuitively guide passengers towards Via platforms at the end of the concourse. (See green lines)
- wall off the paths (see the red Xs) connecting the departure and arrival areas. This would guide/force arriving pax to walk towards the original arrival meet and greet zone. (See red lines).
View attachment 615815

I’m not sure how this would address the main bottle neck at Union Station, which is the vertical access between concourse and platform level. If anything, separating the vertical access points for arriving passengers from those used for departing passengers would exacerbate these problems…

 

[micheal_can]

I’m not sure how this would address the main bottle neck at Union Station, which is the vertical access between concourse and platform level. If anything, separating the vertical access points for arriving passengers from those used for departing passengers would exacerbate these problems…

If there were separate up and down for the arrivals and departures with some sort of crossover for connections,would that be better? A good first step would be to have each platform dedicated to specific lines, and only changed in an emergency situation. I should know what platform to go to before getting to the station. With 16 platforms, there is no reason that each could not be assigned a route,or a series of routes. Knowing the different routes and having a smarter way of getting around the concourses would be a good way to improve the user experience of that station. When we get HSR and GO RER fully rolled out, fixing those issues now will make those future projects that much more better.