VIA Rail

[reaperexpress]

Excuse my ignorance but what is being bypassed? Is that VIA-owned track not a large part of the current existing VIA route between Ottawa and Montreal (with the exception of the CN section as the train enters the metro area)? Isn't the HFR plan itself a massive bypass of the entire Ontario corridor?

In addition to the stopping pattern mentioned by Urban Sky, the current situation is that train service is poorly timed for lakeshore communities since it's optimized for through travel between major cities. For example, the first train of the day from Kingston to Ottawa doesn't arrive there until 11:21, and the first train to Montreal doesn't arrive there until 11:50. Not very useful for commuting or day trips.

With HFR/HSR the limited slots along the Kingston sub can be tailored based on the needs of those communities, since travel direclty between Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal would be on the new passenger railway. Kingston would probably have worse service to Toronto (unlikely they'd still have 14-16 trains per day without through passengers propping up ridership), but Kingston would have more useful service to Montreal and Ottawa, and all the intermediate stations would likely have as many or more services as today, given how many of the current services don't stop at minor stations anyway.

 

[Urban Sky]

Similarly, Toronto-Ottawa and Toronto-Montreal trains are often scheduled within a few minutes from each other to minimize their impact on freight operations, which means that even a lower number than the currently up to 16 trains per day (10 TO and 6 TM) could offer a much more useful schedule, if the departures were properly spaced out and would skip less stops…

 

[micheal_can]

Top 5: These Are Air Canada's Most Frequently-Served Domestic Routes

Air Canada operates a wide range of single-aisle and widebody jets on domestic routes.

simpleflying.com

Talk of the busiest routes had me go digging. I found this.

Top 5 routes from this list are:

1. Toronto to Montreal
2. Toronto to Vancouver
3. Toronto to Calgary
4. Toronto to Ottawa
5. Calgary to Vancouver

It is interesting to me that 2 of them are on a potential HSR corridor. It is also interesting that the second busiest route is between Toronto and Vancouver. That shows that there is a demand for cross Canada travel. The problem is, for the foreseeable future, there is no way rail can put a dent in that. ~3 days on a train is not competitive to a 5 hour flight. However, the Corridor, if converted to HSR could very easily compete with air travel. So,lets quit dithering or politicking and build it.

 

[ownthesky]

Top 5: These Are Air Canada's Most Frequently-Served Domestic Routes

Air Canada operates a wide range of single-aisle and widebody jets on domestic routes.

simpleflying.com

Talk of the busiest routes had me go digging. I found this.

Top 5 routes from this list are:

1. Toronto to Montreal
2. Toronto to Vancouver
3. Toronto to Calgary
4. Toronto to Ottawa
5. Calgary to Vancouver

It is interesting to me that 2 of them are on a potential HSR corridor. It is also interesting that the second busiest route is between Toronto and Vancouver. That shows that there is a demand for cross Canada travel. The problem is, for the foreseeable future, there is no way rail can put a dent in that. ~3 days on a train is not competitive to a 5 hour flight. However, the Corridor, if converted to HSR could very easily compete with air travel. So,lets quit dithering or politicking and build it.

It’s wild to think that the top flights out of Ottawa are also to Toronto and Montreal, so you’d knock out a ton of flights out of that airport as well, opening those gates up for long distance flights. There’s about ten flights out of their airport to these destinations tomorrow.

 

[micheal_can]

It’s wild to think that the top flights out of Ottawa are also to Toronto and Montreal, so you’d knock out a ton of flights out of that airport as well, opening those gates up for long distance flights. There’s about ten flights out of their airport to these destinations tomorrow.

And with HSR, if it is fully electric, depending on the source, it could help lower our GHG emissions.

 

[nfitz]

It’s important to not conflate “VIA Rail Canada Inc.” (“VIA Rail”) with “VIA HFR-TGF Inc.” (“VIA HFR-TGF”), as I’m very confident that VIA Rail has never publicly considered using the Winchester Subdivision as Ottawa Bypass…

I don't think it matters much given they have the same ownership - though some do want to Chuck him.

To be fair, that image was released by Transport Canada - in the July 2021 Ministry announcements by the Ministry and Via Rail. So not VIA ABC-DEF. It showed the use of the Winchester sub all the way from Smith Falls to Vaudreuil.

It would be interesting to know the story behind this graphic.

Though a previous VIA figure that was around for a while - at least as early as 2017, did show what some interpreted as a deviation from the Alexandra sub to the Winchester sub, east of Alexandria, rather than joining the blue CN line at Dorion (to Central I'd assume). If you scroll up the thread a few hundred pages, you should see this.

Both simply could be bad graphics.

 

[robmausser]

by a scaled down VIA upgrade in the existing corridor

Nothing will ever happen in the CN corridor in terms of VIA upgrades ever again. They tried in 2001. It was a financial disaster that had CN overcharge VIA up to 800% for some track sidings so that CN trains could stop for VIA trains. CN then purposefully lengthened all their trains so they couldnt fit in those sidings, forcing VIA to stop instead. Basically CN tricked VIA to pay for sidings that would slow the VIA network down.

This is what we are dealing with in the CN corridor. Captialists. They will do anything and everything to advance their bottom line. We would be idiots to do anything involving CN again.

The use of the CN route as an effective passenger service ended years ago, on November 17th, 1995, when the government owned crown corporation CN rail was sold off and privatized.

Ever since then, the CN mainline will be nothing more but a milk run for local communities.

 

[crs1026]

Nothing will ever happen in the CN corridor in terms of VIA upgrades ever again. They tried in 2001. It was a financial disaster that had CN overcharge VIA up to 800% for some track sidings so that CN trains could stop for VIA trains. CN then purposefully lengthened all their trains so they couldnt fit in those sidings, forcing VIA to stop instead. Basically CN tricked VIA to pay for sidings that would slow the VIA network down.

This is what we are dealing with in the CN corridor. Captialists. They will do anything and everything to advance their bottom line. We would be idiots to do anything involving CN again.

The use of the CN route as an effective passenger service ended years ago, on November 17th, 1995, when the government owned crown corporation CN rail was sold off and privatized.

Ever since then, the CN mainline will be nothing more but a milk run for local communities.

You are taking a valid point and stretching it a bit hyperbolically.

Let's imagine that the government changes, and the new government has no interest or money to build HxAnything.

I would definitely expect CN to go to VIA/Ottawa and say, "Look, we've been really patient with you for a decade or more while you debated what to do about the Corridor.... but now that you've decided against any alternative investment, we have to draw the line. And our business has grown such that we can't even maintain the service commitment that has been in place for the past 15ish years".

Does the government then say, "OK, VIA, better start cutting service back to whatever level CN can offer" ?

Does the government say to CN, "OK, we can't afford umpteen billions for a new line, but we have a small amount available to add a little track to your line to ease the conflict....how about we restart what we were attempting in 2008 but with a little more rigour" ?

Does the government say to CN, "You've had it easy up til now.... but we need this service so suck it up while we study some more....and play nicer" ?

PS Does the government go to Air Canada, Westjet, Porter and others and say, “OK we are killing VIA, how many new gates do you need us to add?” ?

We seem to have fallen into framing the potential scenario for a new government as having no skin in the game and being able to painlessly kill the procurement with no Plan B. I don't see that as how things will play out. This will be a dilemma for a new government, regardless of their past positions or idle pronouncements while in opposition.

- Paul

 

[Urban Sky]

Some of the carrots the federal government can hold towards CN and CPKC are that the river crossings on and off Montreal Island and in Quebec City will need to be replaced soon and will require massive capital investments, which could provide the incentive to collaborate with defined and guaranteed benefits for passenger trains in return for taxpayer dollars…

 

[Frank_Lee]

Would the geography on Via's trackage between Ottawa and Montreal admit a greenfield station? With the modest goal that others have articulated of running 1-2 tph and doing some grade separations on that segment, the costs might be low enough that you could actually get real estate developers to cough up enough to pay for the infrastructure (say 1-2B$). I'm imagining somewhere where someone like Tridel or Mattamy can build 100+ hectares of master planned community for people that want to be able to commute to Montreal or Ottawa. If it's truly greenfield the developers don't have to worry much about zoning and CACs, although I suppose access to utilities and water treatment might be challenging.

 

[micheal_can]

Would the geography on Via's trackage between Ottawa and Montreal admit a greenfield station? With the modest goal that others have articulated of running 1-2 tph and doing some grade separations on that segment, the costs might be low enough that you could actually get real estate developers to cough up enough to pay for the infrastructure (say 1-2B$). I'm imagining somewhere where someone like Tridel or Mattamy can build 100+ hectares of master planned community for people that want to be able to commute to Montreal or Ottawa. If it's truly greenfield the developers don't have to worry much about zoning and CACs, although I suppose access to utilities and water treatment might be challenging.

I'd imagine if the developers could buy enough land anything is possible. Most of it is farmland.

 

[nfitz]

If it's truly greenfield the developers don't have to worry much about zoning and CACs, although I suppose access to utilities and water treatment might be challenging.

Given there's provincial policies to discourage the conversion of prime agricultural land to other uses, isn't zoning a massive issue?

 

[Frank_Lee]

Given there's provincial policies to discourage the conversion of prime agricultural land to other uses, isn't zoning a massive issue?

There's a greenbelt around Ottawa, but not being from Ontario, do they have an equivalent of BC's Agricultural land reserve?

 

[nfitz]

There's a greenbelt around Ottawa, but not being from Ontario, do they have an equivalent of BC's Agricultural land reserve?

No, it's the provincial planning statement (formally the provincial policy statement) which applies province-wide and is the bedrock of planning decisions at the Ontario Land Tribunal.

Provincial Planning Statement, 2024

Learn how the Provincial Planning Statement sets the rules for land use planning in Ontario.

www.ontario.ca

 

[Frank_Lee]

No, it's the provincial planning statement (formally the provincial policy statement) which applies province-wide and is the bedrock of planning decisions at the Ontario Land Tribunal.

Provincial Planning Statement, 2024

Learn how the Provincial Planning Statement sets the rules for land use planning in Ontario.

www.ontario.ca

Wow this is quite conservative. Seems to basically prohibit any kind of new large scale development outside of existing municipalities, regardless of the existing use of the land.

"The establishment of new permanent townsites shall not be permitted."