Urban Sky
Senior Member
No political reasons. Pure commercial and economic logic: Bypassing Ottawa escalates construction costs and reduces revenues. Only politicians could fund such a nonsense…
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VIA Rail
- Thread starter ehlow
- Start date
crs1026
Superstar
Amtrak.putting down a pile of cash on shunt devices
media.amtrak.com
- Paul
Amtrak Awarded $126M in Federal Grants - Amtrak Media
Competitive grants will support six projects and benefit more than two dozen states, improving the safety, efficiency and reliability of Amtrak service and supporting the expansion of intercity passenger rail.
media.amtrak.com
- Paul
dowlingm
Senior Member
Imagine how fast we could move things along if Ontario and Quebec “funding matched”Amtrak.putting down a pile of cash on shunt devices
Amtrak Awarded $126M in Federal Grants - Amtrak Media
Competitive grants will support six projects and benefit more than two dozen states, improving the safety, efficiency and reliability of Amtrak service and supporting the expansion of intercity passenger rail.
- Paul
robmausser
Senior Member
I'm sure a business case will be released, but its not worth saving 30 minutes to avoid the ridership of Ottawa. 3 hours is already faster than any other mode of transportation from Toronto to Montreal. Yes, even planes. People love to lie to themselves, but once you include getting to the airport, security, baggage, boarding, taxing, deplaning, and then getting from Trudeau airport to downtown Montreal, its easily 4 hours. Yes, maybe some of you have miraculously done it in 3.5 hours, but the average even from BB is 4 hours. Plus the headache of all of the changes of transport, dealing with some fat lady throwing out your shampoo, etc. It also wont be much better once the REM is online, the route is quite circuitous, it will just be a nicer ride than a bus.
People arent going to care if the ride is 30 minutes longer for an Ottawa stop when its still faster than flying, and all you have to do is plop your but down in a seat and from Union to Garre Central you dont even have to move a muscle.
Having branch lines will also cause an increase in cost, maintenance, etc. if we decided to have a route to Ottawa and one direct to Montreal. Its not worth saving 30 minutes.
Also, the route is not that out of the way. Its still rather straight because Montreal is north/east of Toronto.
If we draw a straight line from Toronto to Montreal, even the current CN route is not a straight shot. (please note these are VERY rough estimates of where the existing and HSR lines will be, drawn freehand) There exists no route that would be an actual straight shot to Montreal.
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innsertnamehere
Superstar
Doing Toronto - Ottawa - Montreal is about 560km.
Doing Toronto - Kingston - Montreal is about 520km.
So stopping at Ottawa only adds about 40km operating distance.
Given that speeds are averaging around 185km/h along the line, "skipping" ottawa would "save" only 12-15 minutes of travel time. Not worth it.
The reason the quoted line is getting 3-hour travel times while earlier versions quoted 2.5 hours is more likely due to the introduction of larger stretches of slower-speed tracks. I doubt they are doing extensive tunnelling into Montreal and Toronto to shave a few minutes of travel time.
Doing Toronto - Kingston - Montreal is about 520km.
So stopping at Ottawa only adds about 40km operating distance.
Given that speeds are averaging around 185km/h along the line, "skipping" ottawa would "save" only 12-15 minutes of travel time. Not worth it.
The reason the quoted line is getting 3-hour travel times while earlier versions quoted 2.5 hours is more likely due to the introduction of larger stretches of slower-speed tracks. I doubt they are doing extensive tunnelling into Montreal and Toronto to shave a few minutes of travel time.
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MisterF
Senior Member
And using the HFR route, skipping Ottawa would save even less distance. Likely no more than 10-20 km.
Maybe it's because the 401 doesn't go through Ottawa, but people tend to think that it's way more out of the way than it is. In reality a line going from Toronto to Ottawa to Montreal is relatively straight.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
I think it has to do with existing road routes, correct. Driving Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal adds a lot of time today.
Of course, in reality Toronto to Ottawa should probably also have a freeway along Highway 7 as well as the 401 alignment, as it's significantly more direct than current routes, for the same reason HFR is routing that way.
Of course, in reality Toronto to Ottawa should probably also have a freeway along Highway 7 as well as the 401 alignment, as it's significantly more direct than current routes, for the same reason HFR is routing that way.
Urban Sky
Senior Member
Just to back these two claims up, using Euclidean („as the crow flies“) distances:
VIA Rail
The big unanswered question in resolving the problems discussed in the last few posts is this: Will Montreal- and Ottawa-bound trains be completely separate services, partly separate, or combined, and if separate, will Montreal trains go right through Smith's Falls and use the Winchester...
roger1818
Senior Member
The other thing is the straight line from Toronto to Montreal goes under long stretches of Lake Ontario and the St. Laurent river. In reality you wouldn't do that and would instead divert further north to stay on land and get onto the Island of Montreal with a short crossing. Both of these diversions bring the line even closer to Ottawa.
Sauga89
Active Member
Hwy. 7 has a very wide shoulder for a stretch between Peterborough and Norwood ON, probably intended for just such a freeway twinning, but I wonder if it could be used for HSR instead. It would reduce the amount of farmland you'd have to expropriate because east of Norwood is mostly forest.
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Urban Sky
Senior Member
Short answer: most probably, no.
Long answer: https://pedestrianobservations.com/2014/09/01/putting-rail-lines-in-highway-medians/
lenaitch
Senior Member
So neither a new problem nor isolated to Siemens Chargers, it seems.Amtrak.putting down a pile of cash on shunt devices
Amtrak Awarded $126M in Federal Grants - Amtrak Media
Competitive grants will support six projects and benefit more than two dozen states, improving the safety, efficiency and reliability of Amtrak service and supporting the expansion of intercity passenger rail.
- Paul
cplchanb
Senior Member
It's legacy north American railroad standards meeting the rest of the world
Mr Finish Line
Active Member
I know potential routes out of Toronto have been thrown around on this thread a few times, but I don't remember a discussion about using LSE to get out of the urban area. If I understand @smallspy correctly, there's plenty of capacity for 1/2 hourly HSR on a quad tracked LSE, assuming the right signalling.
Following the route where it drops down to double track east of Guildwood, it looks like there is sufficient space for another set of tracks all the way to Pickering where it looks like it starts to become a tight squeeze between the 401, GO, and CN. If another set of grade separated tracks could be squeezed all the way to the 412, it's a straight shot up to the old CP route to Peterborough (Havelock sub?). Metrolinx would have to move stuff around, like the platforms at Rouge Hill, but they would presumably also benefit from a bunch of new grade separations east of Scarborough GO. Does this seem like one of the potential routes?
guavadelic
Active Member
How practical would it be for regional/commuter rail to also operate on potential HxR tracks? VIA HFR execs have been playing up the potential of cities like Peterborough and Trois-Rivieres to be part of the commuter shed of Toronto and Montreal respectively. However the likely cost of HxR tickets won't make it a viable option for most commuters.