VIA Rail

[lenaitch]

I don't recall there were complaints about the army deployment in downtown Toronto (though partly perhaps as the follow-on storm never materialized - but they were certainly in the streets quickly). And I heard great compliments about their deployment in Montreal after the ice storm - they may have knocked on almost every door in the city at some point, when the temperature finally plummeted (though few were left to observe!).

But that doesn't seem right right for VIA except perhaps for a medical evacuation, but presumably Ornge is quite capable of that, and whatever agency does it in Quebec.

(joke - forget the buses - make the contract with Ornge to air-drop pizzas )

https://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php/Canadian_Armed_Forces Though I don't think that's an answer.

OMG, I'm on the same side of this with only Can. Clearly I'm in the wrong here ... I humbly apologize.

Interesting. Considering some of the model years date back to the 1940s I'm not sure how informative that is.

Ornge isn't a rescue service; it is an ambulance service that flies. If a passenger needs medical transport, they still need to get them to a road or suitable clearing. Medical assistance is different than folks stuck on a train.

I don't care how people cut it; it's not a military role. If Canada or a province feels they need an entity to respond to civil emergencies, they need to create one.

There is also something called a duty driver and a recall list. Even if it were 1 bus from both Montreal and Quebec City(CFB Valcartier), that would be a start to ferry the worst off passengers first.

Great, provided the incident is within reasonable driving distance from a Base. Do you think VIA can simply call the Base and ask for a bus and driver?

 

[smallspy]

And yet you used to see VIA-branded buses in Kingston.

40 years ago, sure. Not today though.

For the record, the major centres - Toronto, Kingston, Quebec City - along the corridor could spare 2 or 3 or 4 buses. The minor ones - say, Belleville or Drummondville - could not. Their fleets and operator bases are that small.

Dan

 

[Urban Sky]

Ornge isn't a rescue service; it is an ambulance service that flies. If a passenger needs medical transport, they still need to get them to a road or suitable clearing. Medical assistance is different than folks stuck on a train.

My point is that if a full bus breaks down on a highway curb with an unresolvable issue, a cyclist’s bike breaks down in the middle of a huge forest or if a plane emergency-lands on an abandoned airport, local authorities and emergency services respond as soon as they are alerted and without waiting for reports of passengers running on the highway and getting hit by cars, people getting chased and eaten by bears or starving passengers starting to eat each other. The same should apply to trains being stranded with insufficient food and water supplies for hours.

I don't care how people cut it; it's not a military role. If Canada or a province feels they need an entity to respond to civil emergencies, they need to create one.

In Germany, they have the “Technisches Hilfswerk”, which is 90% volunteer-run and provides technical emergency assistance, which basically starts where the services offered by fire brigades end:

Technisches Hilfswerk - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Great, provided the incident is within reasonable driving distance from a Base. Do you think VIA can simply call the Base and ask for a bus and driver?

Trust me, in his fantasy world, they would only need to provide their credit card details and the buses would already be leaving the base…

 

[CapitalSeven]

Let's ask VIA what its emergency plans are for the HFR segment between Peterborough and Perth, much of which has no nearby roads and is mostly swamp, hills, and rocks. If they can't deal with a problem on the existing lines, I can't wait for the spectacle de merde awaiting. (Not most of us, we'll be dead or too old to travel before it's built. )

 

[Urban Sky]

Let's ask VIA what its emergency plans are for the HFR segment between Peterborough and Perth, much of which has no nearby roads and is mostly swamp, hills, and rocks. If they can't deal with a problem on the existing lines, I can't wait for the spectacle de merde awaiting. (Not most of us, we'll be dead or too old to travel before it's built. )

I’m not sure why VIA would have anything to say about this, since they haven’t been involved in this project for years. For everything else, refer to my response from 4 hours ago:

It’s all a matter of frequency: once you run hourly services, it becomes a lot easier to justify maintaining local emergency resources than for a measly 6 train per day (also, such decisions will no longer depend on the approval of useless bureaucrats). Also, without any freight trains in the way, it will become a lot easier to send a rescue train…

 

[lenaitch]

My point is that if a full bus breaks down on a highway curb with an unresolvable issue, a cyclist’s bike breaks down in the middle of a huge forest or if a plane emergency-lands on an abandoned airport, local authorities and emergency services respond as soon as they are alerted and without waiting for reports of passengers running on the highway and getting hit by cars, people getting chased and eaten by bears or starving passengers starting to eat each other. The same should apply to trains being stranded with insufficient food and water supplies for hours.

Fair enough, but some are making the 'call the military' (or at least call the feds) case. "Local' is the key word. Aviation and maritime matters in federal waters is a JRCC/SAR responsibility. The words 'search' and 'rescue' imply the need for at least one to be required.

In Germany, they have the “Technisches Hilfswerk”, which is 90% volunteer-run and provides technical emergency assistance, which basically starts where the services offered by fire brigades end

And they exist here as well, in Ontario mostly in the north but again, primarily for the search+rescue function. Services offered are consistent with the locale (bush search, mountain rescue, etc.). I suspect that slogging into a stranded train and either carrying supplies or escorting passengers out (all assuming walking distance) would be carried out by local formal emergency services. What to do with them when they are 'out' might fall to an existing partnership with the Red Cross, St. John's Ambulance, etc. Rescue implies removal from danger or distress. Where that line falls varies.

An unintended consequence of any form of this taxpayer or donor funded assistance could be it gives VIA an out for not establishing their own services. Municipalities (in Ontario anyway) are required to have a working emergency management plan. I'm not aware that corporations have any similar requirements. Somebody on another thread citing another circumstance said it was an Occupational Health and Safety requirement. I'm not convinced it is.

There is no easy or singular answer. What might be practical in the corridor, where the entire route travels through organized municipalities and is comparatively accessible, likely won't work with the routes that travel through remote areas. Most emergency services have the mindset of 'do what you gotta do'; perhaps if VIA leadership had the same attitude it would be helpful.

Edit: Or at least were more open about what they are trying/did try to do to alleviate the situation. Hearing a month or two later that they tried to rent buses is mitigating. That knowledge might have gaining them some sympathy, even from the passengers, if it had been communicated at the time.

 

[Bordercollie]

Fair enough, but some are making the 'call the military' (or at least call the feds) case. "Local' is the key word. Aviation and maritime matters in federal waters is a JRCC/SAR responsibility. The words 'search' and 'rescue' imply the need for at least one to be required.


And they exist here as well, in Ontario mostly in the north but again, primarily for the search+rescue function. Services offered are consistent with the locale (bush search, mountain rescue, etc.). I suspect that slogging into a stranded train and either carrying supplies or escorting passengers out (all assuming walking distance) would be carried out by local formal emergency services. What to do with them when they are 'out' might fall to an existing partnership with the Red Cross, St. John's Ambulance, etc. Rescue implies removal from danger or distress. Where that line falls varies.

An unintended consequence of any form of this taxpayer or donor funded assistance could be it gives VIA an out for not establishing their own services. Municipalities (in Ontario anyway) are required to have a working emergency management plan. I'm not aware that corporations have any similar requirements. Somebody on another thread citing another circumstance said it was an Occupational Health and Safety requirement. I'm not convinced it is.

There is no easy or singular answer. What might be practical in the corridor, where the entire route travels through organized municipalities and is comparatively accessible, likely won't work with the routes that travel through remote areas. Most emergency services have the mindset of 'do what you gotta do'; perhaps if VIA leadership had the same attitude it would be helpful.

Would it not be easier to work out a deal with CN to tow the train to the next station? I'm sure there is a yard crew somewhere that could do it.

 

[lenaitch]

Would it not be easier to work out a deal with CN to tow the train to the next station? I'm sure there is a yard crew somewhere that could do it.

It would seem, and I recall they tried to do that but there were other issues. I'm not familiar enough with rail operations to know if it is as simply as dispatching Bob down the road with a locomotive.

 

[Bordercollie]

It would seem, and I recall they tried to do that but there were other issues. I'm not familiar enough with rail operations to know if it is as simply as dispatching Bob down the road with a locomotive.

There is a minimum axle count for the train to run at track speed. The only other option is to keep the F40's on standby at various locations to be able to tow a stranded train. But the HEP cables are not compatible with the Siemens trains so they won't be able to provide heating or lighting unless that's a modification you can make.

 

[dowlingm]

It would probably be cheaper to build a wooden walkway beside every km of track that didn’t have a service road, level crossing or platform to ensure passengers can egress a stopped train than some of the solutions people want to deploy to solve situations like these. Maybe VIA should convert their Siemens sets into ALC-42E config with a nice big battery pack to ensure comfort during these events? Or admit they should have gone with Brightline config and another plain coach rather than cab cars?

Will be interesting to see how Doug Ford’s Northlander with the same equipment handles quick and efficient egress from mid-route failures through thinly populated areas.

 

[Bordercollie]

It would probably be cheaper to build a wooden walkway beside every km of track that didn’t have a service road, level crossing or platform to ensure passengers can egress a stopped train than some of the solutions people want to deploy to solve situations like these. Maybe VIA should convert their Siemens sets into ALC-42E config with a nice big battery pack to ensure comfort during these events? Or admit they should have gone with Brightline config and another plain coach rather than cab cars?

Will be interesting to see how Doug Ford’s Northlander with the same equipment handles quick and efficient egress from mid-route failures through thinly populated areas.

If you could fit a generator in the cab car so that the train could limp to the next station would be a simple fix. 35mph would be better than being a sitting duck.

 

[Urban Sky]

If you could fit a generator in the cab car so that the train could limp to the next station would be a simple fix. 35mph would be better than being a sitting duck.

I doubt you’ll find any engineer or regulator which would sign such a DIY retrofit off…

 

[dowlingm]

I doubt you’ll find any engineer or regulator which would sign such a retrofit off…

Is there any example out there of a locomotive co-operating with a DMU (even if they had compatible controls)? Can’t think of one.

Irish Rail had a generator under their Mark 3 push pull commuter cab cars, but only for power (their locomotive power did not supply HEP). They also inserted Mark 3 generator vans into the De Dietrich trainsets with cab cars akin to the Ventures, but that was for locomotive reliability - they had persistent inverter related failures when supplying HEP and there was no room to add a pony engine. But again, the generator van couldn’t move the train if the prime mover was down for other reasons.

 

[nfitz]

Ornge isn't a rescue service; it is an ambulance service that flies. If a passenger needs medical transport, they still need to get them to a road or suitable clearing. Medical assistance is different than folks stuck on a train.

Of course.

Didn't you see the smiley? If I made a joke about Jesus, Moses, and Valentine Michael Smith walking into a bar - would you point out that Moses is dead?

The military is a poor idea, but none of Toronto-Montreal is more than a 12-hour drive from CFB Kingston; and none of Montreal to Quebec is more than a 12-hour drive from Longue-Point!

For the record, the major centres - Toronto, Kingston, Quebec City - along the corridor could spare 2 or 3 or 4 buses. The minor ones - say, Belleville or Drummondville - could not. Their fleets and operator bases are that small.

I've already apologized and said I'm on the wrong side of this. But for the record I've seen a lot more than 4 buses on an emergency TTC subway diversion. And I'd think 2-3 buses is more than enough to start shuttling people to the nearest ONRoute, community centre, or equivalent.

 

[crs1026]

Fair enough, but some are making the 'call the military' (or at least call the feds) case. "Local' is the key word. Aviation and maritime matters in federal waters is a JRCC/SAR responsibility. The words 'search' and 'rescue' imply the need for at least one to be required.


And they exist here as well, in Ontario mostly in the north but again, primarily for the search+rescue function. Services offered are consistent with the locale (bush search, mountain rescue, etc.). I suspect that slogging into a stranded train and either carrying supplies or escorting passengers out (all assuming walking distance) would be carried out by local formal emergency services. What to do with them when they are 'out' might fall to an existing partnership with the Red Cross, St. John's Ambulance, etc. Rescue implies removal from danger or distress. Where that line falls varies.

A couple decades ago I worked at a major industrial facility that had an emergency preparedness plan that envisaged (in a worst case scenario) evacuating a large urban area. There were protocols for requesting provincial emergency mobilization - and these involved filling out forms and getting approval first from various municipal authorities.

A similar requirement no doubt exists at the Federal level. The army does not respond to requests from single organizations. A provincial minister or the Premier would likely have to make the request, and federal authorities would then have to deliberate . That kind of request and response goes well beyond what would be useful or timely to respond to a stalled passenger train. It definitely falls on VIA and its host railways to have a plan and make that plan work within their own sphere of influence and with the most immediate agencies.

Edit: Or at least were more open about what they are trying/did try to do to alleviate the situation. Hearing a month or two later that they tried to rent buses is mitigating. That knowledge might have gaining them some sympathy, even from the passengers, if it had been communicated at the time.

The biggest gap in this event was indeed not so much a failure to respond logistically, as a failure to keep people in the loop. The glass was partly full in VIA's handling of the problem.

I think as a society we give Corporate Communicators far too much leeway to compose unhelpful messages and hold back actual information.

I did once experience an airline pilot who tried to explain what part of a jet engine was not working that caused us to u-turn off the taxiway and return to the gate... the explanation was not enlightening, but there was a lot greater confidence that the situation was being handled competently. There may be only so much the train service crew can do to explain to passengers what a particular mechanical problem is - but who the problem has been escalated to and how they will be responding, and how the most immediate and basic passenger needs will be met, is pretty reassuring.

- Paul