VIA Rail

[nfitz]

Your post was in direct response to a discussion about a specific video by Paige Saunders. It is reasonable to assume that given that you were continuing that discussion, that you were talking about the topic of the discussion.

I replied to the post that preceded mine, which simply used a pronoun. Tracing back it mentioned Paige, going back a few more posts, there's no mentioning of him being a videoer. In fact, I'd assumed they was discussing other videoers.

Sure, I could have read all the posts in more detail - but I have no idea why we need to discuss such stuff here at all. I'd assumed that the topic of discussion was VIA Rail - not miscellanea like tickket checks, queues.

Why there's so much activity here about absolutely nothing I don't know. Perhaps we need another thread about tickets, queues, and videoers?

 

[crs1026]

I can understand the need to control access to platforms at Montreal and Toronto for safety, but that can be done without a ticket check. In an era where other systems' info technology is so advanced, and tells you not only where your train is going but where each car will be found, which end of the car to board at....and then repeats the whole thing with overhead monitors in the car.....I see no reason for staff to be intervening.i. passengers' paths. Just don't open the gate until boarding is desired, and then stand back and look friendly and respond to passenger inquiries. Let the signage guide people (VIA is a couple of generations behind the curve in station IT....thanks no doubt to Ottawa and not VIA not allowing the investment).

The ticket check always feels officious and for anyone with luggage, having to have ticket in hand complicates body movement, especially since our stations have stairs and escalators versus "flatter" stub end termini in many foreign cities..

I do think this may be partly borne of past culture where trains were only used by the elderly and infirm, the assumption being that passengers can't figure things out for themselves. And by train and terminal operations being run ad hoc or with elements that are mysterious to passengers. Make the monitors work well, make the PA effective, structure the staff roles to be helpers and cheerful intervenors rather than controllers or challengers.

- Paul

-

 

[Urban Sky]

Here is the transcript from that part of the video:

If you now include the part where this benign observation suddenly turns into an immature rant with swear words, you might finally acknowledge how unprofessional and totally unacceptable this was for a journalist which (if I understood that correctly) occasionally works for one of Canada‘s most respected media outlets…

I can understand the need to control access to platforms at Montreal and Toronto for safety, but that can be done without a ticket check. In an era where other systems' info technology is so advanced, and tells you not only where your train is going but where each car will be found, which end of the car to board at....and then repeats the whole thing with overhead monitors in the car.....I see no reason for staff to be intervening.i. passengers' paths. Just don't open the gate until boarding is desired, and then stand back and look friendly and respond to passenger inquiries. Let the signage guide people (VIA is a couple of generations behind the curve in station IT....thanks no doubt to Ottawa and not VIA not allowing the investment).

Speak after me: You can‘t allow non-passengers onto a platform if they have no way back. The vertical access at all three largest VIA stations (TRTO, MTRL, OTTW) allows only passenger flows in one direction.

As I keep saying like a broken record: If you want European-style boarding practices, you need to make sure you have European-style station/platform infrastructure. If you asked DB or JR to operate trains at these stations, they would come up with boarding procedures which have a very strong similarity with those of VIA and very little with those „at home“…

 

[kEiThZ]

What's the point of allowing non-passengers on to a platform? That's not done for intercity trains, in most of the countries that Canadian railfans supposedly look up to.

 

[kEiThZ]

...you might finally acknowledge how unprofessional and totally unacceptable this was for a journalist which (if I understood that correctly) occasionally works for one of Canada‘s most respected media outlets…

Maybe he's trying to give fodder to the next government for cutting CBC too.

With friends like these....

I don't know how anybody can see that part and not see it as classic "Begs the question" trolling. "Look at how much they spend on employees and look at these boarding practices. Begs the question...."

Also, journalist dude completely missed any mention of how VIA is not responsible for HFR anymore since project governance was changed. But then proceeds to argue VIA is to blame for assumptions he dislikes about HFR. So much for facts....

 

[lenaitch]

I can understand the need to control access to platforms at Montreal and Toronto for safety, but that can be done without a ticket check. In an era where other systems' info technology is so advanced, and tells you not only where your train is going but where each car will be found, which end of the car to board at....and then repeats the whole thing with overhead monitors in the car.....I see no reason for staff to be intervening.i. passengers' paths. Just don't open the gate until boarding is desired, and then stand back and look friendly and respond to passenger inquiries. Let the signage guide people (VIA is a couple of generations behind the curve in station IT....thanks no doubt to Ottawa and not VIA not allowing the investment).

The ticket check always feels officious and for anyone with luggage, having to have ticket in hand complicates body movement, especially since our stations have stairs and escalators versus "flatter" stub end termini in many foreign cities..

I do think this may be partly borne of past culture where trains were only used by the elderly and infirm, the assumption being that passengers can't figure things out for themselves. And by train and terminal operations being run ad hoc or with elements that are mysterious to passengers. Make the monitors work well, make the PA effective, structure the staff roles to be helpers and cheerful intervenors rather than controllers or challengers.

- Paul

-

Are you advocating for some form of electronic ticket scanning, or no intervention at all?

 

[crs1026]

If you now include the part where this benign observation suddenly turns into an immature rant with swear words, you might finally acknowledge how unprofessional and totally unacceptable this was for a journalist which (if I understood that correctly) occasionally works for one of Canada‘s most respected media outlets…

Youtube-style journalism does frequently tend to have a format where relevant facts and official statements and positions are presented somewhat formally and then the narrator turns somewhat candid to make their talking points - which may well have a "let's cut through the crap" tone. This particular video did a poor job of that imho by digressing beyond his main theme, and by drifting into a gratuitous and unnecessarily profane rant over things that were unrelated - a pretty cheap shot imho, and a disservice to the earlier part of the video which (whether one agrees or not) was well done.

Speak after me: You can‘t allow non-passengers onto a platform if they have no way back. The vertical access at all three largest VIA stations (TRTO, MTRL, OTTW) allows only passenger flows in one direction.

As I keep saying like a broken record: If you want European-style boarding practices, you need to make sure you have European-style station/platform infrastructure. If you asked DB or JR to operate trains at these stations, they would come up with boarding procedures which have a very strong similarity with those of VIA and very little with those „at home“…

I hope this is a major design change which is incorporated into whatever is happening with revamping under the trainshed at Toronto Union. Aside from passengers being less likely to have luggage, there is certainly no barrier to 2-way circulation to GO platforms, and I can't see why VIA platforms would have to be made different.

My theory is - passengers get doubly antsy when they can't see their train and don't really know if the process is.... Is there even a train up there? How long will it take mebto get aboard?

(My further theory is, even if they can see the train (as at Ottawa) they don't really relax until they have reached their seat. How long will it take me to find my coach? If I chill here at the gate, have I left myself too little time?)

I appreciate the physical constraints, the point is... whatever psychology is at play, it's at odds with ViA's practices. In the end, the psychology will prevail even if the barriers and constraints are rational and in place for good reason.

- Paul

- Paul

 

[crs1026]

Are you advocating for some form of electronic ticket scanning, or no intervention at all?

Other systems (Brightline, and UK for instance) have a perimeter turnstile system....only ticketed passengers get into the main waiting or platform areas. Once they are in there, they are on their own..

The Uk's system is conspicuously porous -the scanning is unreliable at best and too many types of fares require paper or electronic tickets that the scanners don't play nice with - and our stations are not necessarily built to allow it. But in theory, one should only have to show one's ticket once, on the train. These days, better trains have displays showing you that you are in the right seat, possibly even your name.

- Paul

PS - a major part of my discovery of trains in my formative years was seeing my grandmother off on various long distance trains - she shuttled back and forth regularly between family members in Manitoba, Ontario, and Kansas. Back in the day it was common for elderly passengers to be accompanied by family all the way to their sleeping car room or coach seat. Those early glimpses of sleeping cars and coaches are part of what got me here. For that matter, people taking cross Atlantic ships had wellwishers accompanying them all the way to their stateroom, until they were told it was time to get off before the ship departed. Try doing that today.

 

[lenaitch]

But in theory, one should only have to show one's ticket once, on the train

I agree with only having to 'show' (however defined) a ticket once. I'm not sure about the "on the train" part for long distance or inter-city unless it is while it is still standing at the station. Turning the sparse onboard staff into fare inspectors creates a number of enforcement and jurisdictional issues in this country. Much like trying to turn flight attendants into fare inspectors.

 

[valvenis]

I assume VIA has data on what percentage of their riders are regulars. It would be interesting to compare that to airlines and bus companies.

It is interesting though. This stuff annoys regular rail users. But whenever I see noobs on the train, all the staff seems very reassuring to them. Will be interesting if/when HFR comes around and a lot of this service model has to be changed. I assume if you miss your stop in Peterborough, they'll not be paying for a cab from Smiths Falls.



You even get airport style security at some of those stations. Personally encountered that. Lots of railfans seem to both forget about this practice in Europe or excuse it. So lining up to board is not okay. But lining up to go through security at the entrance of the platform, right before you board, is just fine.

At the airport, once you get on the plane there usually isn't someone walking down the aisle checking to see if you paid for your ticket.

Why does VIA still hire someone to do that?

That job seems redundant as mentioned in Paige's video.

 

[smallspy]

At the airport, once you get on the plane there usually isn't someone walking down the aisle checking to see if you paid for your ticket.

Why does VIA still hire someone to do that?

That job seems redundant as mentioned in Paige's video.

Planes don't usually make intermediate stops.....

And when they do, you better believe that those people who boarded stood in line and had their tickets checked.

Dan

 

[Mihairokov]

What's the point of allowing non-passengers on to a platform? That's not done for intercity trains, in most of the countries that Canadian railfans supposedly look up to.

Perhaps i'm missing something but you can access a lot of platforms as a civilian without any sort of ticket. I don't think I encountered any intercity stations in Germany/Belgium which had turnstiles or some sort of clearance. Koln Hbf, Berlin Hbf, Brussels Centraal....you can sort of just go to the platforms however you like. Union in Toronto is the same for GO.

Nobody ever checked for my tickets, either, but that's an aside.

 

[crs1026]

I agree with only having to 'show' (however defined) a ticket once. I'm not sure about the "on the train" part for long distance or inter-city unless it is while it is still standing at the station. Turning the sparse onboard staff into fare inspectors creates a number of enforcement and jurisdictional issues in this country. Much like trying to turn flight attendants into fare inspectors.

I can't think of a single intercity rail system I have used where there was not some sort of on board fare checking, either systemmatic or random.... except for the original GO Transit process where one had an "in" and "out" half to one's ticket.

I suspect that the on train ticket inspection may be necessary so long as our trains have places where less than 100% of doors are opened at a stop. The on train crew will want to be doubly sure that "shorts" are sitting in a car that will be where doors are opened. But this is indeed a place where our system falls behind others. Why do we have such primitive corridor stations .

I definitely think this is one place where rail should be trying to differentiate itself from air travel. Checking in at Pearson is the most stressful part of flying.... show your Nexus card here, but show your passport there.... repeat..... Just because this is how air travel works is no reason to set one's standards that low.

But I have also been not checked on many rides where in theory ticket checking was standard practice.... and the world didn't end. Maybe spot checking is all anyone needs, especially when seats are reserved anyways.

- Paul

 

[kEiThZ]

Other systems (Brightline, and UK for instance) have a perimeter turnstile system....only ticketed passengers get into the main waiting or platform areas. Once they are in there, they are on their own..

This works, at least in my opinion, because they tend to have decent separation from commuter platforms. I do hope HFR is modeled substantially after Brightline.

These days, better trains have displays showing you that you are in the right seat, possibly even your name.

This practice might be getting more restricted as privacy concerns proliferate.

The Uk's system is conspicuously porous -the scanning is unreliable at best and too many types of fares require paper or electronic tickets that the scanners don't play nice with - and our stations are not necessarily built to allow it. But in theory, one should only have to show one's ticket once, on the train.

Travelled in the UK last summer. I didn't find things that different from VIA. The real difference was the culture. People just didn't head to the gates until 5-10 mins before departure. We went early, just because we weren't familiar with procedures or the station.

Try doing that today.

Our world has changed. It's a massive risk to allow unscreened non-passengers onto the platform. Especially considering attack terrorist attacks on intercity trains.

 

[kEiThZ]

Perhaps i'm missing something but you can access a lot of platforms as a civilian without any sort of ticket. I don't think I encountered any intercity stations in Germany/Belgium which had turnstiles or some sort of clearance. Koln Hbf, Berlin Hbf, Brussels Centraal....you can sort of just go to the platforms however you like. Union in Toronto is the same for GO.

Nobody ever checked for my tickets, either, but that's an aside.

Really depends on the country. When I took HSR in Spain, in Cordoba we had airport style security and ticket checks at the platform. In Antequera, we had the checks to enter the station itself (it's a station in the countryside).