VIA Rail

[crs1026]

I would not think this is an issue if it weren't for the latest developments.

VIA has given the GO ahead for GO service to London and obviously that service will increase dramatically over the next decade and beyond and due to GO service from KW all day soon coming, VIA has effectively begun the slow retreat from the service entirely. All one has to do is look at the same scenario that is taking place in Niagara where the VIA website now simply mentions rail service by working with it's "partners" at GO & Amtrak. When you now go to VIA's schedules for Niagara service you will find that there no longer is one.

Amtrak will find the Chicago/Detroit/Toronto a very lucrative one as Detroit to Toronto ridership explodes and very high ridership numbers at London and Windsor. When you combine this with VIA's purely political decision to provide HFR to QC and not London, it does make one wonder. When it comes to revenue per km the Union/London route requires the least amount of subsidy in the entire VIA system so financially it should be the very first line to get HFR yet VIA seems content to do absolutely nothing with this key corridor.

It certainly is not an "oversight" but possibly a long-term plan for VIA to not spend the money on a service that they are trying to retreat from?

I don’t see Amtrak about to “explode” service to Toronto…. did service thru Niagara “explode” when the Maple Leaf was inaugurated? VIA’s retreat from Niagara came later and happened for other reasons.

Opening the CP Windsor tunnel to passenger service might possibly lead to a couple Detroit-Toronto trains per day. (I can’t see CP accepting much more than that.)

There will be through ridership to Michigan and on to Chicago, and that might amount to a couple of international carloads per day in each direction …. certainly enough to make the service valuable as an increment to existing Chicago-Detroit and Toronto-Windsor services. But VIA will be left with its current service pattern and opportunity.

I think you are reading too much into GO starting token service to London. That does not put through Toronto-London-Windsor service at risk, and might actually add some riders to it.

In my heart I would like to see a much more aggressive development of service west of Toronto, but that inaction is a waste of opportunity rather than a risk to what we have running today. I expect to see modest growth in VIA’s numbers and market share year over year especially if HFR happens to the east.

- Paul

 

[roger1818]

VIA has given the GO ahead for GO service to London and obviously that service will increase dramatically over the next decade and beyond and due to GO service from KW all day soon coming, VIA has effectively begun the slow retreat from the service entirely.

Then again, the federal government is studying HFR west.

All one has to do is look at the same scenario that is taking place in Niagara where the VIA website now simply mentions rail service by working with it's "partners" at GO & Amtrak. When you now go to VIA's schedules for Niagara service you will find that there no longer is one.

The Maple leaf has been cancelled during COVID. When it was operational, VIA operated the trains north of Niagara Falls (and the domestic tickets were sold by VIA). I have no doubt the same will be true when the service resumes. I don't think Amtrak is allowed to sell domestic rail tickets in Canada.

Amtrak will find the Chicago/Detroit/Toronto a very lucrative one as Detroit to Toronto ridership explodes and very high ridership numbers at London and Windsor.

As @Urban Sky said, with the long delays at the boarder, it is much more likely that either Amtrack will run a train from Chicago to Windsor which then connects to a VIA train after clearing customs in the station, or VIA will run a train from Toronto to Detroit (via Windsor) which connects to a train to Chicago after clearing customs in the station.

When you combine this with VIA's purely political decision to provide HFR to QC and not London, it does make one wonder. When it comes to revenue per km the Union/London route requires the least amount of subsidy in the entire VIA system so financially it should be the very first line to get HFR yet VIA seems content to do absolutely nothing with this key corridor.

As I said, the government is studying it, but the problem is there aren't any abandoned/underutilized rail lines VIA could use to London.

It certainly is not an "oversight" but possibly a long-term plan for VIA to not spend the money on a service that they are trying to retreat from?

I think you are paranoid and reading into things.

 

[TFC]

I would not think this is an issue if it weren't for the latest developments.

VIA has given the GO ahead for GO service to London and obviously that service will increase dramatically over the next decade and beyond and due to GO service from KW all day soon coming, VIA has effectively begun the slow retreat from the service entirely. All one has to do is look at the same scenario that is taking place in Niagara where the VIA website now simply mentions rail service by working with it's "partners" at GO & Amtrak. When you now go to VIA's schedules for Niagara service you will find that there no longer is one.

Amtrak will find the Chicago/Detroit/Toronto a very lucrative one as Detroit to Toronto ridership explodes and very high ridership numbers at London and Windsor. When you combine this with VIA's purely political decision to provide HFR to QC and not London, it does make one wonder. When it comes to revenue per km the Union/London route requires the least amount of subsidy in the entire VIA system so financially it should be the very first line to get HFR yet VIA seems content to do absolutely nothing with this key corridor.

It certainly is not an "oversight" but possibly a long-term plan for VIA to not spend the money on a service that they are trying to retreat from?

I fail to see how VIA is "trying to retreat" from the north mainline. As others have mentioned, the north mainline presents the best opportunity to add significant service to London long-term, especially if CN ends up selling the remaining portion of the Guelph subdivision to MX or VIA. The recurring comments yearning for VIA to abandon the north mainline, and Kitchener in particular, are rather unfortunate.

 

[DirectionNorth]

Then again, the federal government is studying HFR west.

We're a world leader in studying things while not actually doing anything.

The Maple leaf has been cancelled during COVID. When it was operational, VIA operated the trains north of Niagara Falls (and the domestic tickets were sold by VIA). I have no doubt the same will be true when the service resumes. I don't think Amtrak is allowed to sell domestic rail tickets in Canada.

I don't think so either - but wasn't the International jointly run by Amtrak and VIA? I'd think that's the model they would use, though border crossing would be an issue.

As @Urban Sky said, with the long delays at the boarder, it is much more likely that either Amtrack will run a train from Chicago to Windsor which then connects to a VIA train after clearing customs in the station, or VIA will run a train from Toronto to Detroit (via Windsor) which connects to a train to Chicago after clearing customs in the station.

I can see that happening.

As I said, the government is studying it, but the problem is there aren't any abandoned/underutilized rail lines VIA could use to London.

Between Toronto and London, they would probably use the NML. West of London, I wonder how willing CN would be to sell the Chatham sub. Or maybe VIA could build its own track adjacent to CN's, though some agreement would have to be worked out; this may be an impractical solution.

I think you are paranoid and reading into things.

You can't be over cautious with VIA. We have worse intercity service and more cuts than the Americans, which is a low bar to set. It's practically underground.

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I don't think so either - but wasn't the International jointly run by Amtrak and VIA? I'd think that's the model they would use, though border crossing would be an issue.

the train ran with an Amtrack crew to Niagara falls after the train cleared customs and the passengers were back on board a VIA rail crew took over the train and it operated as aVIa train to Toronto. This was done because the train made stops along the way to Toronto, unlike the other trains that cross the border which retained their Amtrack crews.

 

[Urban Sky]

the train ran with an Amtrack crew to Niagara falls after the train cleared customs and the passengers were back on board a VIA rail crew took over the train and it operated as aVIa train to Toronto. This was done because the train made stops along the way to Toronto, unlike the other trains that cross the border which retained their Amtrack crews.

He was talking about the "International" (a Amtrak train which operated from 1982 to 2004 from Chicago via Sarnia to Toronto), but I believe it was the same arrangement as on the Maple Leaf, except that they seem to have alternated with VIA equipment until 1995...

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

He was talking about the "International" (a Amtrak train which operated from 1982 to 2004 from Chicago via Sarnia to Toronto), but I believe it was the same arrangement as on the Maple Leaf, except that they seem to have alternated with VIA equipment until 1995...

Interesting I had never heard of that train before I thought the maple leaf was the only train to the US to depart from Union station.

 

[crs1026]

^There was also a shortlived overnight Toronto-NY train that ran weekends only (iirc). Didn’t prove to be worth the effort.

- Paul

 

[Bordercollie]

^There was also a shortlived overnight Toronto-NY train that ran weekends only (iirc). Didn’t prove to be worth the effort.

- Paul

If it could complete with the night bus that would make it successful.

Sleeping cabin for the same cost as airfare plus hotel with food included. Arrive in NYC before 9am.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

^There was also a shortlived overnight Toronto-NY train that ran weekends only (iirc). Didn’t prove to be worth the effort.

- Paul

I remember at one point they had a train that went from Toronto to Buffalo and back later in the day on Buffalo Bills game days they did it one season and had plans to build a station near the stadium. I don't think it did well as people who go to Bills games from Toronto want to tailgate

 

[Urban Sky]

^There was also a shortlived overnight Toronto-NY train that ran weekends only (iirc). Didn’t prove to be worth the effort.

- Paul

What you are referring to is an Amtrak service which operated overnight between New York City and Niagara Falls, NY, where it connected with VIA #92 (from NIAG to TRTO) and VIA #95 (from TRTO to NIAG), presumably by having the passengers transfer and clearing customs by foot.

According to VIA's 1994-04-24 schedule, the overnight service was inaugurated on June 17, 1994, and departed NYC as #65 on Fridays and Saturdays, arriving in and returning from Niagara Falls the next day (i.e. as #62 on Saturdays and Sundays):

VIA's 1994-10-30 and 1995-04-30 schedules only show the train as leaving NYC on Fridays and Niagara Falls on Sundays, while it completely disappeared with the 1995-10-29 schedule.

The last time a night train operated across the Niagara River was therefore CP's Toronto-Buffalo-NYC service (which ceased in October 1970, when the service got replaced by the Toronto-Welland-Buffalo RDC service, which was then superceded in April 1981 by the Maple Leaf we know today):

Source: CP schedule (effective 1970-04-26)

 

[Urban Sky]

^^Turns out the plan was never executed the way it was described in the VIA timetables and the train actually operated only once per week and all the way to Toronto (NYC dep. Friday night, TRTO dep. Sunday night):

Sources: Rail and Transit (June 1994, p.15) and Branchline Magazine (September 1994, p.21)

Contrary to VIA's schedules, the through connection was mentioned in Amtrak's October 1994 (and presumably also in the summer 1995 schedule):

Source: timetables.org (copyright by Amtrak)


To add confusion, Amtrak called this cross-border service "Niagara Rainbow", which had been the name for a NYC-Detroit train, which ran across Southwestern Ontario (from Niagara Falls via St.Thomas and Windsor) between October 31, 1974, and January 31, 1979. The Wikipedia-article about that service also mentions the NYC-Toronto overnight service and provides an end date:

Amtrak also ran an overnight service between New York and Toronto, also named the Niagara Rainbow, from June 1994 to September 10, 1995. It operated as a once-weekly additional frequency of the Maple Leaf, departing New York on Friday night and returning on Monday morning.

 

[ssiguy2]

That VIA is "studying" HFR West means nothing. They have been studying HSR for 40 years and we know how far that has gotten them.

They should not be studying London extension because it should have been part of the original proposal and well before QC. The fact that it is not in the CURRENT HFR plan speaks volumes about how little they seem to care. Yes it would need new/twinning track and overpasses but that is true of the entire Tor/QC route and on a passenger carried analysis, London would be the cheapest portion to build. I don't think you people realize just how pissed off the people and Mayors of Windsor and London are over this plan and they have the right to be.

VIA's HFR proposal just reinforces what everyone already knew........this is first and foremost a political document and a transportation plan a distant second.

 

[Bordercollie]

That VIA is "studying" HFR West means nothing. They have been studying HSR for 40 years and we know how far that has gotten them.

They should not be studying London extension because it should have been part of the original proposal and well before QC. The fact that it is not in the CURRENT HFR plan speaks volumes about how little they seem to care. Yes it would need new/twinning track and overpasses but that is true of the entire Tor/QC route and on a passenger carried analysis, London would be the cheapest portion to build. I don't think you people realize just how pissed off the people and Mayors of Windsor and London are over this plan and they have the right to be.

VIA's HFR proposal just reinforces what everyone already knew........this is first and foremost a political document and a transportation plan a distant second.

Who decides which stations get how much service? I think it's unfortunate that Trenton and Ganonoque only are two trains per day. They should at least have two trains trips per direction.

Ganonoque being a tourist spot it's impossible to take a day trip out there from Toronto using the train. And the only way to get there from Kingston is by $50 taxi. For that money you could just rent a car and drive there yourself.

 

[ssiguy2]

Are you seriously comparing little Ganonoque and Trenton to London?