VIA Rail

[nfitz]

Somehow, I doubt we'd see yet another VIA route bypassing Ottawa on the Winchester Sub, when VIA is supposed to maintain service on the Kingston Sub as well.

I don't see how they can't to be honest, and offer any reasonable Toronto to Montreal service. And even this doesn't seem to do any better than using the CN route.

"Maintain" service ... like they have for Sarnia and Niagara Falls? Good job Kingston is a safe Liberal seat.

 

[rbt]

But if there is a fall election and the government falls, none of this will ever get built.

Maybe. If the bankers also believe VIA subsidy can be removed permanently then that's a pretty strong incentive for small government supporters. It may not be exactly this plan (expect some trimming like electrification) but some variation would likely be attempted.

 

[kEiThZ]

Currently best time is almost 90 minutes from Ottawa to Dorval. I'm hard-pressed to how you increase it much more! You'd need an average of 104 miles/hour, platform to platform.

If HFR is supposedly getting Ottawa-Montreal to between 1:30 and 1:45, that would imply that Ottawa-Dorval is 1-1:15 hrs.

Given the two transfers and 30 mins required, to get from downtown to Ottawa airport, a transfer at Tremblay station and then at Dorval in 1 hr starts to look attractive if the air fare is competitive, which given Ottawa's situation as an Air Canada fortress hub is far too common.

 

[Nouvellecosse]

Regarding the 200km/h speculation, just because there was a passing mention of 200km/h in one announcement doesn't mean this is indicative of significant spending on route re-alignment. It could very well just be one short section where it reaches that speed for 30 seconds or something. Governments, particularly this government, are rather clever with marketing. They want flashy headlines and positive press coverage. The reason for the high cost is probably just because a good portion is in poor condition and the rest of the route doesn't even have tracks. In addition to the cost of electrification, most of the level crossings don't have crossing booms, and such physical barriers will be required for all crossings with frequent fast train traffic. There will probably also need to be grade separations on busier routes as well as additional sidings since the route is mostly single track. Then station facilities will be needed for any of the new stops without suitable facilities. Plus, just to maintain conventional speeds of 160-177km/h there will likely need to be some canting or super elevation due to many of the curves. We'll have to watch for more detail but I don't see any reason to jump to conclusions.

 

[Urban Sky]

There is no way this should take 10 years. $6B with electrification sure. But $12B is a pretty ridiculous estimate.

...assuming that the desired travel times between Montreal and Quebec City can be achieved without building a new tunnel underneath the Mont-Royal tunnel...

Also, what about London & Windsor?

Let me tell you a story about two provinces:

In one province, upon learning that HFR was only planned to reach a measly 50 km into its territory to serve its biggest city, the mayors and chambers of commerce joined forces with their provincial government to lobby the federal government until it extended the scope.

Meanwhile, in the other province, the provincial government had just launched its own HSR proposal and even though there was virtually no overlap between both projects, VIA was attacked in countless newspaper articles (especially in the L.F.P.) for meddling with this scheme - by proposing something far less ambitious on the other side of the big city...

Edit: L.F.P., not L.N.P.

 

[kEiThZ]

...if the desired travel times between Montreal and Quebec City can be achieved without building a new tunnel underneath the Mont-Royal tunnel...

Eeeep. So billion dollar tunnel? If they are actually doing that, I'm happy to see it. But it is expensive. And does explain the $12B upper end estimate.

the provincial government had just launched its own HSR proposal and even though there was virtually no overlap between both projects,

You forgot the best part. They had an election and the new government binned the HSR proposal the previous government came up with, leaving Southwestern Ontario with no HSR or HFR.

especially in the L.N.P.

Do you mean the LFP?

 

[nfitz]

If HFR is supposedly getting Ottawa-Montreal to between 1:30 and 1:45, that would imply that Ottawa-Dorval is 1-1:15 hrs.

The La Presse article said the minimum is 100 minutes not 90 minutes. Current best scheduled time from Dorval to Central is 17 minutes ... hopefully they can knock it to 15 with the new track through Turcot and some switch/track upgrades from St-Henri into Central. That would make Dorval to Ottawa 85 minutes not 60 minutes!

 

[Nouvellecosse]

Even if they did want to twin the tunnel, is there a suitable alignment to the north leading up to Mont-Royal now that REM occupies the route previously used by the Deux Montagnes line? Seems like a bit of a squeeze to fit one or more additional tracks along side the dual REM tracks plus the REM stations such as Canora and Gare Mont-Royal. I'd say it makes more sense to invest in a convenient connection such as the alternate for REM de l’Est that people were fantasizing about over on agoramtl.com. Kick Loblaws out of Parc station and allow the new station and connector to serve both HFR and the St. Jerome line while providing improved transit connectivity to the corridor. That would make more sense than spending that kind of money on a rail tunnel for a train that, while frequent for intercity rail, still probably won't be more than hourly or 1/2 hourly..

 

[Kraylin]

...if the desired travel times between Montreal and Quebec City can be achieved without building a new tunnel underneath the Mont-Royal tunnel...


Let me tell you a story about two provinces:

In one province, upon learning that HFR was only planned to reach a measly 50 km into its territory to serve its biggest city, the mayors and chambers of commerce joined forces with their provincial government to lobby the federal government until it extended the scope.

Meanwhile, in the other province, the provincial government had just launched its own HSR proposal and even though there was virtually no overlap between both projects, VIA was attacked in countless newspaper articles (especially in the L.N.P.) for meddling with this scheme - by proposing something far less ambitious on the other side of the big city...

Government lobbying government while supported by lobbyists. No wonder tax time makes my head spin. Got to love 46% tax rates for this multi level nonsense.

 

[MisterF]

The map with the Ottawa by-pass is bizarre. It shows it on the CP mainline. I can see what CP gains from giving up control of the Havelock sub, but their mainline is a different story. So we'd end up with one of two scenarios: either Via runs on the line with the same scheduling and reliability problems that plague the current CN route, or they put a lot of money into expanding the line with guarantees that freight trains never delay passenger trains. To make the latter worth it the passengers gained from a faster trip to Montreal would have to not only have to make up for the cost of expanding the line, but also the passengers lost from skipping Ottawa. Putting a lot of money into by-passing one of your biggest revenue sources to slightly improve travel times to Montreal seems like a razor thin business case to me.

given the mention of 200km/h, I suspect we are looking at a primarily new alignment between Peterborough and Smith Falls. The area is too curvy as is to really be useable, and the isolated location means a grade separated 200km/h line wouldn't be too much additional in cost over a 177km/h line as minimal grade separations are required.

That would inch up construction costs closer to that $6-12 billion number and would allow trains to clear Toronto-Ottawa much quicker.

If you could get Fallowfield-Peterborough mostly into 200km/h territory, you could theoretically clear that stretch in 1:30 or so, giving 1:30 for Peterborough through Toronto and access into Ottawa.

3 hours for Toronto-Ottawa is an average speed of 130km/h or so - fast, but not crazy if you can get a good chunk of the line up to 200km/h.

The isolated section is less than half of that actually. East of Peterborough you still have frequent concession roads and farm lanes for another ~100 km. Same thing between Perth and Ottawa. The grade crossings do thin out in the remote section though, especially in the Kaladar area.

 

[ManyQuestions]

...if the desired travel times between Montreal and Quebec City can be achieved without building a new tunnel underneath the Mont-Royal tunnel...

Which is required because they simply aren't going to use the REM tunnels. I don't have any insider information, but I've been working on documenting the project and it's impacts. From what I understand, the REM project is being built with no consideration for mixed heavy rail operations. Both because of required 90s train spacing with no space for passing tracks in the central segment and because of the modified loading gauge that arises from the installation of modern ventilation and fire suppression equipment despite ongoing tunnel widening - see image below.

While this isn't a guarantee, I simply don't know how else they fulfill the promises and also reach the the up to 12b cost. This is why I'm feeling very optimistic about this announcement.

 

[crs1026]

^The CP Winchester Sub is in wide open countryside all the way to Dorion. Lots of room for VIA to add trackage. Cutting the corner at De Beaujeu makes eminent sense both to avoid the crossing of CP and to stay away from CN freight operations at Coteau.

I don't believe for a moment that VIA will build new bridges at Ile Perrot, but sharing with somebody must be possible. From that point eastwards, something needs to be done to avoid conflicts with freight. We will see what VIA proposes.

- Paul

 

[Urban Sky]

Government lobbying government while supported by lobbyists. No wonder tax time makes my head spin. Got to love 46% tax rates for this multi level nonsense.

According to the tax calculator of Indeed.ca, a salary of $100,000 (68,040€) would be taxed at 32.5% in Quebec (marginal rate: 45.7%), but 42.2% (marginal rate: 52.0%) in my German home state of Hessen....

 

[Northern Light]

According to the tax calculator of Indeed.ca, a salary of $100,000 (68,040€) would be taxed at 32.5% in Quebec (marginal rate: 45.7%), but 42.2% (marginal rate: 52.0%) in my German home state of Hessen....

Worth adding; few people in that pay bracket pay the posted rate or anything close.

Even before factoring in a given year's tax deductions/credits; most people will have income stashed in tax shelters like RRSPs and TFSAs; on top of which capital gains are taxed at 1/2 the rate of salaried income, and there's also a standard credit reducing tax on dividend income.

Then there's the raft of deductions/credits for having children or being over 65, or working from home or being self-employed etc etc.

I don't mind if people state that they prefer not to see tax dollars spent on project 'x'; even if I might support it. Preferences will vary.

I also don't mind value-for-money arguments about whether the details of a program or project get the most out of the money on offer.

However, I have relatively little patience for the argument that taxes in Canada are particularly onerous as a percentage of income.

If one is merely irked at how needlessly complex we've made taxes, as opposed to the amount collected, on that, I'm happy to agree.

 

[innsertnamehere]

TFSAs are not tax free at deposit, only at withdrawal. investments grow tax free but the if the initial capital comes from income it is taxed before being deposited. Important distinction. It does allow for some very low tax growth in retirement savings though, and allows for very low taxable incomes in retirement.

Canada also has surprisingly few tax deductions and a relatively simple tax structure compared to many countries.

Most people will have deductions of some sort, mainly RRSPs, but otherwise there aren't a whole ton of eligible deductions.

A big difference between Canada and Europe is lower sales taxes - Germany has a 19% sales tax while Ontario is 13%. Corporate taxes are also much lower in Canada.

Canada does have relatively high income taxes compared to globally but the overall tax burden isn't anything crazy.