VIA Rail

[roger1818]

^I may have lost the thread on why there have to be two variations of Coach and two of Business Car, but taking that as read, it's apparent from the extra short version trainset that "A" cars are all that is needed to equip a trainset with all the prerequisite accessibility, technology, and service delivery equipment. The "B" cars may augment that, but one assumes that the "master" version of everything important is in the A's, and the "B" cars are fill-outs.

That leads one to think that the "B" cars ought to be generic and most easily convertible from one configuration to the other. So, if the distribution were found to be sub-optimal, it would be most practical to shift from Coach B to Business B or vv.

So long as that's roughly true, then I wouldn't worry about getting the initial distribution exactly right. Changeovers will be pretty doable.

I don't know if the configuration of any of the cars is publicly known, but if I had to guess (it is just a guess), the special features of each type are as follows:

Car type	Class	Services	Trainsets
1A	Economy	Galley	All (2x Extra Long)
1B	Economy	Accessible (+ bike rack?)	Short, Long & Extra Long (2x Extra Long)
3A	Business	Accessible	All
3B	Business	Galley	Long & Extra Long
4A	Economy	Accessible, Cab	All

This would mean:

• The Short and Extra Short trains would have the business car use the Galley in the 1A car (presumably at the front of the car) and there are accessible seats and washrooms available in both classes of service (the short would have a second economy accessible car).
• The Long train would have separate galleys for business and economy and the same number of accessible cars as a short train.
• The Extra long train would add a second economy galley and a third economy accessible car.

This would allow the appropriate service growth as the train gets longer. If my guess is correct. the 3B could be considered a replacement for a 1A (though the galleys might be configured differently) but it wouldn't be a replacement for 1B.

One has to think that the chair frames will use common components, even if the cushions and backs differ. One hopes that moving between 2-2 and 2-1 seating doesn't require rebuilding anything structural, and wiring etc is compatible.

Given that the seating in business class is 2+1 but in economy it is 2+2, there is a good chance that the seats are wider in business class. The common areas would also likely be different as the washrooms might be appointed differently and fewer passengers means they may need less luggage space. The wiring for task lighting and power outlets would also likely be different for the different number and configuration of seats. So while the shell might be the same, there are likely significant differences to the interior, which would make conversion a bigger job than just buying some extra seats and reupholstering the existing ones.

I expect Siemens and VIA will have thought this through.

That is certainly my hope. The fact that VIA has published diagrams (albeit low resolution) of the different car and train configurations, I expect they have been having a lot of discussions behind the scenes.

 

[crs1026]

That might be a decent alternative. The question is if the front car of the trainset will have a standard or semi-permanent coupler to couple with the locomotive (having 2 locomotives on such a train seems needless)? Since it always seems to always be a Business 3A car and all trainsets only have 1 Business 3A car, there is no real reason for it to be semi-permanent, so I guess they could couple it to the cab car. There would be no way to travel between the two trainsets though. Maybe I should try another analysis with this configuration.

This coupler style would allow them to maintain baggage service by coupling a HEP baggage car behind the Charger, though they would still end up with the same limitations in push operation at stations where the Engineers do the baggage handling that is seen with LRC Set 1.

I’m assuming (but have never seen it in print) that the new fleet will be able to J-train as is done today. The locomotive nose appears to be a little different than say Brightline’s and that may have been done to enable joining trainsets. I would expect the cab cars are no different in this regard, and consists are truly bidirectional, so a J-train of two Venture sets might have both locos in the middle, or one leading and one trailing, or the reverse, or the locos at outer ends. Any permutation ought to work, the value is in not having to turn anything, nor take anything apart. That’s a fair tradeoff for the overpowering/redundancy of having two loco’s.

- Paul

 

[roger1818]

I’m assuming (but have never seen it in print) that the new fleet will be able to J-train as is done today. The locomotive nose appears to be a little different than say Brightline’s and that may have been done to enable joining trainsets. I would expect the cab cars are no different in this regard, and consists are truly bidirectional, so a J-train of two Venture sets might have both locos in the middle, or one leading and one trailing, or the reverse, or the locos at outer ends. Any permutation ought to work, the value is in not having to turn anything, nor take anything apart. That’s a fair tradeoff for the overpowering/redundancy of having two loco’s.

- Paul

Certainly they could (all the pictures I have seen of VIA's Chargers have standard couplers on front of the Charger and the Cab Car). This is necessary for split service trains (trains 50/60 and 52/62).

My point was that it just seems a waste to have 2 locomotives on a 6 car train when a 7 car train only needs 1. If the Business 3A car also has a standard coupler at the front end, they would avoid the need for a second locomotive. This would also make the charger more flexible as it would have a standard coupler at both ends, meaning they could use it on other trains if needed.


Image From VIA Rail's Website

 

[crs1026]

^It's going to be interesting watching VIA learn to treat the trainsets as fixed sets, especially since locomotives and railcars do have varying maintenance needs and while they are capable of being maintained as a set, the temptation to swap out a coach or loco will still remain.... and will be necessary from time to time. Having said that, if the connections are more permanent than today (as the Ren cars are joined) there will be disincentives to doing it too often.

Does anyone want to start a pool as to how long before we see a Charger loco running with a couple coaches and no cab car? I'm sure it will happen also.

The issue with removing a loco from a J-trained consist that doesn't need a second engine is, if the trainset doesn't cycle back again before the consist needs to be split up, the redundant loco ends up in a different place than the trainset that needs it later. Sure, it's extra fuel and wear and tear to haul it along, but keeping things together may be the more flexible approach. One sees J-trains today that are grossly overpowered, but that's the price of joining consists that are already top-and-tail.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

^It's going to be interesting watching VIA learn to treat the trainsets as fixed sets, especially since locomotives and railcars do have varying maintenance needs and while they are capable of being maintained as a set, the temptation to swap out a coach or loco will still remain.... and will be necessary from time to time. Having said that, if the connections are more permanent than today (as the Ren cars are joined) there will be disincentives to doing it too often.

Does anyone want to start a pool as to how long before we see a Charger loco running with a couple coaches and no cab car? I'm sure it will happen also.

The issue with removing a loco from a J-trained consist that doesn't need a second engine is, if the trainset doesn't cycle back again before the consist needs to be split up, the redundant loco ends up in a different place than the trainset that needs it later. Sure, it's extra fuel and wear and tear to haul it along, but keeping things together may be the more flexible approach. One sees J-trains today that are grossly overpowered, but that's the price of joining consists that are already top-and-tail.

- Paul

Wasn't one of the many issues with the Turbo the fact that they were a unit, so if one thing needs repair it is not easily removed from the consist?

 

[roger1818]

^It's going to be interesting watching VIA learn to treat the trainsets as fixed sets, especially since locomotives and railcars do have varying maintenance needs and while they are capable of being maintained as a set, the temptation to swap out a coach or loco will still remain.... and will be necessary from time to time. Having said that, if the connections are more permanent than today (as the Ren cars are joined) there will be disincentives to doing it too often.

Does anyone want to start a pool as to how long before we see a Charger loco running with a couple coaches and no cab car? I'm sure it will happen also.

It might happen, but given that Quebec, Montreal, and Windsor all operate exclusively as terminal stations by VIA, not having to turn trains around is of significant value. The Quebec-Montreal-Ottawa trains will benefit significantly, since they all have to wye mid route in Montreal, and as others have said, it is a long detour to wye trains in Windsor.

If I had to guess, corridor trains west of Montreal will push eastbound and pull westbound and east of Montreal will do the opposite. That way the locomotive is the last thing to enter the shed and first to leave, thus won't pollute the air as much since it is fully enclosed.

The issue with removing a loco from a J-trained consist that doesn't need a second engine is, if the trainset doesn't cycle back again before the consist needs to be split up, the redundant loco ends up in a different place than the trainset that needs it later. Sure, it's extra fuel and wear and tear to haul it along, but keeping things together may be the more flexible approach. One sees J-trains today that are grossly overpowered, but that's the price of joining consists that are already top-and-tail.

- Paul

It really depends what the plan is for the trainset. If they want to split, short split or deadhead the train then sure, but if the plan is to keep it together, then there is no point. Examples of these are:

• Split: As previously mentioned trains 50/60 and 52/62 from Toronto to Montreal and Ottawa depart as one train and split in Brockville.
• Short Split: On Sunday night, train 75 runs as a J-train of LRC Set 14 and HEP2 Set 1, both with passengers. The latter terminates in London (ready for train 82 Monday morning) while the former continues to Windsor.
• Deadhead: Train 33 Monday morning has LRC set 9 coupled behind it empty, to move it to Ottawa in preparation for Train 645.

Wasn't one of the many issues with the Turbo the fact that they were a unit, so if one thing needs repair it is not easily removed from the consist?

The high frequency of maintenance and repairs was the bigger issue with the Turbo Trains. Also, I beleive they were permanently coupled (not semi-permanently coupled), thus much harder to split.

Semi-permanent couplers are harder to uncouple than standard Tightlock couplers, but when in a maintenance shop, I don't beleive it is all that difficult. If one car did need extra work, they could swap it out if necessary. In general it is the locomotive that has the higher maintenance requirements, which is another reason to use a standard coupler on both ends of it, to make it easier to swap out.

 

[crs1026]

Wasn't one of the many issues with the Turbo the fact that they were a unit, so if one thing needs repair it is not easily removed from the consist?

Yes, but the setup of the maintenance facility available, and the number of funky odd unproven things in the Turbo technology, magnified that.

Operation of fixed trainsets is a proven thing these days - I’d guess that it is actually more prevalent than loose-car train consists.

A lot more thought goes into maintenance processes and facilities, also. Procuring a new fleet often comes with a new maintenance facility or two, custom-built for the model of train.

VIA is already keeping its consists together, and no doubt has structure around when and how consists are changed.

- Paul

 

[crs1026]

Semi-permanent couplers are harder to uncouple than standard Tightlock couplers, but when in a maintenance shop, I don't beleive it is all that difficult. If one car did need extra work, they could swap it out if necessary. In general it is the locomotive that has the higher maintenance requirements, which is another reason to use a standard coupler on both ends of it, to make it easier to swap out.

Short of rigid drawbars, which I’m confident is not on, the coupler isn’t the hard part. It’s the wiring, piping, and the diaphragms. As the on board tech intensifies, there may be new data couplings. Power and MU cables and brake lines may be located to protect from the elements and from foreign objects etc. making them more laborious to separate/connect.

Do we know if the HEP is compatible with existing technology? Will the old and new fleets ever comingle, eg can they be J-trained to each other?

Again, I have missed the memo - do we know the diaphragm style? That presentation reads “wide gangways with no doors”?

- Paul

 

[roger1818]

VIA is already keeping its consists together, and no doubt has structure around when and how consists are changed.

Agreed. As I mentioned earlier, with the current fleet, only 4 trainsets had cars added and removed (8 changes total) during the week and they were all done overnight at either the MMC or TMC. Interestingly, only on Sundays were all coaches in play.

 

[roger1818]

Short of rigid drawbars, which I’m confident is not on, the coupler isn’t the hard part. It’s the wiring, piping, and the diaphragms. As the on board tech intensifies, there may be new data couplings. Power and MU cables and brake lines may be located to protect from the elements and from foreign objects etc. making them more laborious to separate/connect.

That is a good point.

Do we know if the HEP is compatible with existing technology? Will the old and new fleets ever comingle, eg can they be J-trained to each other?

I haven't heard anything one way or the other but given that Amtrak is using Chargers with their existing fleet, and Siemens has been selling Venture trainsets independently of the Chargers, I would be surprised if it isn't compatible. Hardly conclusive though I know.

Again, I have missed the memo - do we know the diaphragm style? That presentation reads “wide gangways with no doors”?

Not really sure, but this Siemens Venture brochure (which includes a drawing of a VIA Charger and VIA's business class interior) says "The semi-permanent coupled configuration creates a comfortable, safe, and fully-ADA compliant transition between coaches" and "Coupled gangways and grab handles on all aisle seats improve safe passage through and between cars." Not sure if that helps.

As for the "no doors" comment, there seem to be automatic doors between the cabin and the vestibule rather than between the vestibule and the gangway.

 

[SunriseChampion]

Sorry to interject, but I'll be out of work shortly and was planning on posting up in Ottawa for a week or two. Does anyone have experience with what travelling with VIA is like right now?

I'm either going to drive or take the train....I would fly but Porter is still shut down.

Is it a particularly hassle-laden experience on the trains right now?

Much appreciate any input.

 

[Urban Sky]

Sorry to interject, but I'll be out of work shortly and was planning on posting up in Ottawa for a week or two. Does anyone have experience with what travelling with VIA is like right now?

I'm either going to drive or take the train....I would fly but Porter is still shut down.

Is it a particularly hassle-laden experience on the trains right now?

Much appreciate any input.

I unfortunately haven’t been on board a train since the pandemic hit, but VIA’s website should give you a good overview over what measures are in place:

Plan your trip

Get the trip you want! Plan and manage your next trip, book your tickets online and get the most up-to-date information on your journey.

www.viarail.ca

In general, staff will check that you wear a mask and ask you a few screening questions before boarding, but I haven’t heard anything (neither internally nor through Social Media reports) which would suggest that travelling right now would be a “particularly hassel-laden experience” compared to normally.

However, don’t hesitate to call 1-888-VIA-RAIL if you have any particular concerns and my colleagues will be happy to explain to you what to expect.

In any case, have a safe trip and stay healthy!

 

[crs1026]

Sorry to interject, but I'll be out of work shortly and was planning on posting up in Ottawa for a week or two. Does anyone have experience with what travelling with VIA is like right now?

I'm either going to drive or take the train....I would fly but Porter is still shut down.

Is it a particularly hassle-laden experience on the trains right now?

Much appreciate any input.

I haven’t been on board since COVID hit (withdrawal pains growing) but friends who have tell me that the experience was painless and they had no anxiety provoking moments.

- Paul

 

[p_xavier]

I haven’t been on board since COVID hit (withdrawal pains growing) but friends who have tell me that the experience was painless and they had no anxiety provoking moments.

- Paul

Yeah, I take VIA when I need to go to the office and no issue. Even in economy class I was told that seats are left empty for social distancing.

 

[robmausser]

I was told that seats are left empty for social distancing.

Aww thats a cute excuse by VIA as to why there are empty seats. Bless...