VIA Rail

[Allandale25]

It's concerning because we were supposed to have more details by the end of 2020, but there was silence. It seems the government has been humouring VIA and never had any intention to build it.

HFR as a concept isn't going to survive past the next budget. If there is an election in 2021, HFR is going to be buried even deeper.

I re-read the update I provided here: https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/via-rail.21060/post-1621928

I don't think the VIA CEO confirmed in her remarks the JPO's work would be made public by the end of the year. She may have meant that it would be given to the Minister. So I don't think there's been any public commitment that "we were supposed to have more details by the end of 2020". The Minister may have it, but the public aka "we" may have to wait a bit.

 

[crs1026]

Also note that the we now have a new Minister of Transport which may have/had some impact.

Comments I have seen have said nothing negative, but have pointed out that he has absolutely no prior experience on the transport file. He is from Mississauga, which one might hope would make him aware of public transportation issues. I wonder how he has been accustomed to commuting to Ottawa.

There is no point in speculating (or fearing the worst). Too much political water will go under the bridge before COVID ends. The current crisis may force government to spend so much on health and social assistance that the public becomes fiscally fearful....in which case many future projects could be at risk.... or there may be an appetite for shovel-ready stimulus projects, which HFR will be by then. And who knows where stimulus money will be spent - Ontario/Quebec vs Alberta vs..... ?

I am eagerly awaiting the JPO reports, simply to put data on the table towards some of our armchair analysis and speculation.

All we can do is.....wait. (and remain optimistic)

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

Where would you place a new "station downtown" that solves "the issue of continuing trains through to Quebec?"

Under de la Gauchetiere. Though the new Forum makes that more difficult. Though wouldn't need to be a new station.

 

[Urban Sky]

Under de la Gauchetiere. Though the new Forum makes that more difficult. Though wouldn't need to be a new station.

You mean more than 42 meters below street level (i.e. underneath the tunnel of the Autoroute Ville-Marie)?

 

[roger1818]

You mean more than 42 meters below street level (i.e. underneath the tunnel of the Autoroute Ville-Marie)?

Is the orange metro line above, below, or beside the Ville-Marie expressway?

 

[Urban Sky]

Is the orange metro line above, below, or beside the Ville-Marie expressway?

Besides (Northwest of it). Wikipedia reports a depth of 22.6 meters for Bonaventure Station and of 16.2 meters at Square Victoria-OACI, but basically the entire vertical area between Metro and street level is occupied by the underground city...

 

[sacred]

Can anyone comment on windows in VIA’s fleet? Fifteen years ago a train I was on in the corridor hit an animal which resulted in a rock hitting my outside window. I think that the fact that the window consisted of many sheets of glass resulted in no shattering and no damage to a 9 year old. Are all windows on VIA’s fleet (present and future) designed like this?

 

[Darwinkgo]

Re: whether HFR needs to be in the budget

It does not in all circumstances. If the JPO comes back with a freestanding project, or with a scope that is freestanding plus elements which require a subsidy, the CIB can proceed with the freestanding elements without additional legislation. All that is needed is a Treasury Board approval to transfer funds that are already legislatively authorized, and which Treasury Board has already approved as a program.

Now sure, that means a government can stop HFR. But since the process is not dependent on legislation, it is not dependent on the supply bill for the budget passing in ~June.

Whether this really matters for this spring I doubt it. I suspect to dot Is and cross Ts for the ea and FNMI consultation will take until at least fall as by design those things need to take place if not in the public eye, in a way that activity is visible. TBH they’ve already missed the window to approve the project by cabinet by April. And transferring funds before approval is a good way to complicate any potential legal challenges. (The funding was already approved by Parliament years ago).

 

[crs1026]

Re: whether HFR needs to be in the budget

If funding is from the CIB one would think it may not be decided within the budget process.... ironically, if the funding were by way of the budget, the whole laborious routing through the CIB would be a bit of a sham.

The bigger question is when the feds intend to declare their commitment to the project One might see this included in a budget document, simply so there is one more paragraph outlining the good things the government is doing. Or it might have its own separately timed announcement and hoopla. I would predict the latter, .....I’m not sure the upcoming budget will bring down the government, so there’s no rush to lay out election goodies yet.

The short term complications that I see are a) as noted, consultation isn’t far enough along yet, and b) the government will likely have to announce its plans to rescue the airlines first and deal with VIA second. I just can’t see backing VIA without addressing the dire state of the airline industry. There are so many laid off airline workers out there.

All of this is political ball gazing, and I’m never much good at that....but I do think the context has less to do with the JPO getting its work done and more with the broader politics. I’m not holding my breath for the budget.

- PAUL

 

[Urban Sky]

The short term complications that I see are a) as noted, consultation isn’t far enough along yet, and b) the government will likely have to announce its plans to rescue the airlines first and deal with VIA second. I just can’t see backing VIA without addressing the dire state of the airline industry. There are so many laid off airline workers out there.

On the upside, airlines will hardly be in a position to publicly lobby against allocating any public money for HFR simply on the grounds that it would undermine market forces...

 

[crs1026]

^ Quite true. The key is to not have headlines reading “Laid-off airline workers abandoned by pro-VIA government”.

I would expect the feds will announce a funding narrative outlining a path to airlines’ “recovery”.... not to guarantee that it ever goes back as it was, but enough to hope that the jobs start to come back, especially for international and long distance domestic routes.

HFR will take a few years to construct, and T-O-M air travel may lag post-Covid. It will be a new ball game.

- Paul

 

[roger1818]

^ Quite true. The key is to not have headlines reading “Laid-off airline workers abandoned by pro-VIA government”.

If it is worded as a transportation industry stimulus package with money for both the airlines and VIA, they can't really make that argument.

 

[nfitz]

You mean more than 42 meters below street level (i.e. underneath the tunnel of the Autoroute Ville-Marie)?

Uh no. Ville Marie is way south of de la Gauchetierre. I'd put the VIA tunnel both north of Ville Marie and the Orange Line, under the street. This plan has been floating around for decades ... isn't there an old report that Canadian Pacific's consulting arm (CPCS )did for VIA about it in the early 1980s or late 1970s? It was certainly discussed if not reported.

Ville Marie is south of both the Orange Line and Viger, and at the CN tracks/Place Bonavenutre it's under or south of St-Antoine! At Peel it's underneath St-Jacques.

 

[roger1818]

Uh no. Ville Marie is way south of de la Gauchetierre. I'd put the VIA tunnel both north of Ville Marie and the Orange Line, under the street. This plan has been floating around for decades ... isn't there an old report that Canadian Pacific's consulting arm (CPCS )did for VIA about it in the early 1980s or late 1970s? It was certainly discussed if not reported.

Ville Marie is south of both the Orange Line and Viger, and at the CN tracks/Place Bonavenutre it's under or south of St-Antoine! At Peel it's underneath St-Jacques.

It would have to be under the underground city, but I guess it could be at at a similar depth to the Orange Line. The question is how would you get to the tunnel (presumably from the Westmount Sub) and how much would it cost? Gare Lucien-L'Allier is probably good enough for EXO, so they likely wouldn't be keen on helping to fund it, though they might use it if it was built.

 

[nfitz]

It would have to be under the underground city, but I guess it could be at at a similar depth to the Orange Line.

There's very little underground city literally underground the street itself. But yes, would have to be some changes.[/quote]

The question is how would you get to the tunnel (presumably from the Westmount Sub) and how much would it cost?

That was the easy part - at least before they build the new Forum. The idea was that you'd be under the road, and Place du Canada and tunnel under the existing Windsor station and existing platforms, with a portal near Lucien L'allier.

The tough part would be to the east ... now that they've cancelled the plans to extend the Ville Marie all the way to Souligny, perhaps they can put a couple of tracks in the existing shallow Ville Marie tunnel east of Square-Victoria somewhere.

Though with elevated rail being all the rage, maybe just elevate it all the way along Notre Dame