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VIA Rail

" It is a figure that represents the amount per $1,000 of the assessed value of the property, which is used to calculate the amount of property tax. "
In other words, if your house was assessed $10,000 higher, you pay a higher tax due to that 10x $1000 that it has risen by.
That's not how it works. If your's was $10K higher, but everyone elses was $20K higher, your taxes would go down.

Cities don't raise and lower tax rates (they always seem to lower these days ... I've never seen a rise). They set a budget, and then later on bureaucrats divide the budget by the total assessed value of city, every year, to get a tax rate.
 
If in a particular neighbourhood, prices go up, say 20%, but only 10% overall in that city, then your taxes may go up. But those variations don't tend to sustain themselves, and ultimately tend to cancel each other out.

It may not be common, but it can happen that an old, established becomes trendy and the property values of that neighborhood skyrocket compared to the rest of the city/municipality. In that case, people who have lived there for a long time can see a significant increase in taxes. For those cases, I would like to see some type of property tax control (similar to rent control) that limits how much the assessed value of a home can rise while it is under the same owner (without significant upgrades to the house). Once the property is sold or a major renovation is done, it would be reassessed to its current market value. This is a completely different case than what is being discussed though, where the whole city sees an increase in property value.

The problem is that we tend to plan growth as an after thought to the transportation improvements.

Maybe in Sudbury you don't do much planning for growth, but here in Ottawa at least, city council does a lot of growth planning. It may not be the type of growth you like (sprawl vs. densification) but you can't say city council isn't planning for it.

One part of growth planning we are weak at though is with schools. The province is very reactive rather than proactive. They will wait until the existing schools are bursting at the seams before they will even consider a proposal to build a new school, which will take another 5 years to plan and construct (and even then they will wait a few years before approving it).

Part of the problem with growth is the city is surrounded by prime farmland. Every time I go for a visit, it saddens me than a new area is now converted from farmland to urban sprawl.

I wish Ontario would create an Agricultural Land Reserve, like they have in BC to help protect valuable farm land.
 
FWIW - I posed a question to the Metrolinx TPAP for the Scarborough Junction grade separation regarding VIA Rail's potential use of the Stouffville line as an alternative to a HFR routing down the Don Valley.

The TPAP report page 6.30 presents a response. It's not definitive, but it's an acknowledgement of the issue. One has to assume that the two agencies have discussed the issue.

- Paul

Screen Shot 2020-12-30 at 3.45.45 PM.png
 
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This is not about divorcing it, but it is about planning for it.

That is not VIA's job. That is the job of local authorities.

So, for example, the city needs to prepare the city for the explosion in growth that it will face.

First off, the "explosion" will not be as huge as you think. Yes, there will be more commuters from London. But the kind of folks who have jobs that will allow them to WFH substantially and pay enough to afford an HFR/HSR a few times a week is a rather small set. They are a big enough set to provide base ridership for such a service. But not such a large set that London's growth rate would explode. This is a far bigger issue for cities that haven't seen the same ex-urban growth, like Peterborough. For London, those Toronto yuppies are already coming. They just won't be clogging up the highways now.

Next, don't blame VIA, Queen's Park or the Feds for shit planning in London. Blame the locals. Just look at the war that is going on with SHIFT. I saw the same crap in Ottawa a decade and a half ago. Locals who are convinced that their medium sized metro is some small town that they grew up in, and unwilling to invest in transit. Ottawa was able to push through. How London deals with it, is entirely up to London. They can choose to invest in transit and densify to keep housing affordable and convenient. Or they can keep building the crap Mississauga style subdivisions they are building at virtually every edge of the city today. Their choice.

In other words, if your house was assessed $10,000 higher, you pay a higher tax due to that 10x $1000 that it has risen by.

Did you miss the bit where I said cities fix the budget first and adjust the mill rates annually? So no, if everybody's house went up $10k, their taxes wouldn't go up. If your house went up $10k RELATIVE to your neighbour, then you would face a higher tax bill.

It may be a fact of life, but it still upsets people. Several of my family members have spoken about that.

And? I have relatives in Toronto who complain about the price of housing there. Should we stop building all infrastructure and trash our immigration policy because some people are unhappy?

Ironically, if we had built this infrastructure decades ago, we would have see far more even development in these satellite cities. London, Kitchener, etc. would have been larger. The GTA would have been smaller. Being larger would have also allowed those cities to offer better amenities and public services. And made them more competitive attracting investment and jobs.

You talk about housing costs in London. Ever asked those young relatives of yours how the job market is? There's a reason my wife sees so many folks she recognizes from London on the subway in Toronto.
 
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FWIW - I posed a question to the Metrolinx TPAP for the Scarborough Junction grade separation regarding VIA Rail's potential use of the Stouffville line as an alternative to a HFR routing down the Don Valley.

The TPAP report page 6.30 presents a response. It's not definitive, but it's an acknowledgement of the issue. One has to assume that the two agencies have discussed the issue.

- Paul

View attachment 291683

One thing to consider is Metrolinx will benefit from HFR as it will make it feasible for them to run commuter trains to Peterborough. They did study this about a decade ago, but at the time, the CPR Toronto Yard (in Agincourt) was much larger (and busier) than it is today so it came out to be too expensive at the time. By working together, they can both benefit.
 
One thing to consider is Metrolinx will benefit from HFR as it will make it feasible for them to run commuter trains to Peterborough. They did study this about a decade ago, but at the time, the CPR Toronto Yard (in Agincourt) was much larger (and busier) than it is today so it came out to be too expensive at the time. By working together, they can both benefit.

I'll be a whole lot happier if GO declines to offer commuter service, and VIA takes up the slack. As we've discussed before here, the HFR line runs through the Greenbelt - if commuter stations sprung up on the line in that area, the wrong things would happen. Perhaps GO trains have a place for the first 20 miles out of Toronto - and good VIA service to Peterboro is a no-brainer. Add GO trains to VIA's HFR line, and a lot more capacity will be needed, too... VIA's plans fit HFR, but GO would need additional sidings or double track in places.

I'm inferring that there must be a money discussion quietly happening between ML and VIA in preparation for HFR. It makes no sense for VIA to get a free ride from all the capital expansion ML is pursuing. If VIA is expanding frequency on ML's track, it ought to handle a share of the cost of that expansion...no different than from tenancy on a freight railway, albeit with more compatible operational needs.

Happily, there hasn't been an Ottawa- Queens Park showdown on the issue (yet), and I hope it's a mutually positive outcome. But I expect ML is eager for VIA to pay its fair share.

- Paul
 
I'll be a whole lot happier if GO declines to offer commuter service, and VIA takes up the slack. As we've discussed before here, the HFR line runs through the Greenbelt - if commuter stations sprung up on the line in that area, the wrong things would happen. Perhaps GO trains have a place for the first 20 miles out of Toronto - and good VIA service to Peterboro is a no-brainer. Add GO trains to VIA's HFR line, and a lot more capacity will be needed, too... VIA's plans fit HFR, but GO would need additional sidings or double track in places.

That ship sailed when GO started going to Kitchener, Barrie and Hamilton with regular service. Heck, there's now limited service to Niagara Falls. Eventually Peterborough residents are going to start asking why they have to pay VIA fares when GO services other remote suburbs and exurbs. And the line would be valuable to provide some kind of GO service to northeast Scarborough and eastern Markham, branched off Stouffville.
 
I'll be a whole lot happier if GO declines to offer commuter service, and VIA takes up the slack. As we've discussed before here, the HFR line runs through the Greenbelt - if commuter stations sprung up on the line in that area, the wrong things would happen. Perhaps GO trains have a place for the first 20 miles out of Toronto - and good VIA service to Peterboro is a no-brainer.

You do bring up a valid point and it may not be necessary for both VIA and GO to have trains all the way to Peterborough. Even so, given that Metrolinx's was "created to improve the coordination and integration of all modes of transportation in the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area," it doesn't really matter who provides the service from Peterborough, it is still helping Metrolinx fulfill its mandate.

Add GO trains to VIA's HFR line, and a lot more capacity will be needed, too... VIA's plans fit HFR, but GO would need additional sidings or double track in places.

Additional sidings, if not double track, would be certainly be needed if they were to share the track, but that could be co-ordinated.

I'm inferring that there must be a money discussion quietly happening between ML and VIA in preparation for HFR. It makes no sense for VIA to get a free ride from all the capital expansion ML is pursuing. If VIA is expanding frequency on ML's track, it ought to handle a share of the cost of that expansion...no different than from tenancy on a freight railway, albeit with more compatible operational needs.

I am sure VIA pays to use ML's track the same way they pay to use CN's track. If their needs extend beyond the capability of the track, I am sure there is a process to help pay for that as well.

Happily, there hasn't been an Ottawa- Queens Park showdown on the issue (yet), and I hope it's a mutually positive outcome. But I expect ML is eager for VIA to pay its fair share.

Metrolinx's mandate doesn't extend to Ottawa, so I don't se them wanting to start GO service here (though I would like to see them take over the reginal commuter buses that extend beyond OC Transpo's territory).
 
London will never {thank God} become like Kitchener. Unlike KWC, London will never be a Toronto commuter town and GO rail to the city would be a supreme waste of money. It will never become part of the Toronto urban blob as it is simply too far. London, unlike KWC, is also a regional centre and arguably the province's 3rd most important city.

London's fast growth is not due to Toronto commuters but rather Toronto escapees. People who are fleeing Toronto's high prices, horrid traffic, and high pressure do not look to KW as it is simply to close and sort of negates the purpose. London is growing due to seniors cashing out, young people fleeing to a more affordable city, telecommuters who only have to make it into the city once or maximum twice a week, and those simply looking for a more relaxed and less rushed lifestyle. KW & Hamilton simply don't offer those amenities. Conversely London does not offer the affordable alternative for people who still work in Toronto full-time that those 2 cities offer.
 
That ship sailed when GO started going to Kitchener, Barrie and Hamilton with regular service. Heck, there's now limited service to Niagara Falls. Eventually Peterborough residents are going to start asking why they have to pay VIA fares when GO services other remote suburbs and exurbs. And the line would be valuable to provide some kind of GO service to northeast Scarborough and eastern Markham, branched off Stouffville.

It will be interesting to see how GO and ML cooperate on Niagara and especially on Kitchener. I take your point about Peterborough wanting the same amenities as other regional GO end points (translation: Commuter pricing and ticketing, regional fare structure, unreserved and abundant seating). I hope that a cooperative Regional style service emerges for these routes.

As to GO service, I agree it would be useful, but I would end it at the 407, partly because that's a good strategic transfer point and partly because that's where the line veers away from suburban Scarborough/Markham into two sensitive river sheds and a lot of greenbelt. That's an area that should not see development, even if there is frequent train service crossing through it.

- Paul
 
Metrolinx's mandate doesn't extend to Ottawa, so I don't se them wanting to start GO service here (though I would like to see them take over the reginal commuter buses that extend beyond OC Transpo's territory).

Sorry if I was unclear. I was referring to who pays for ML capital investment. I'm not sure if the Wynne-Trudeau announcement of federal support to ML is still on the books, and I forget if it was targeted towards LSE or Stouffville. I expect it would be a sore point if QP sees itself spending money to assure VIA of capacity. I'm talking new capital investment rather than whatever ML charges VIA to use its lines as they exist today. QP is never shy when it feels Ottawa isn't paying enough.

- Paul
 
It may not be common, but it can happen that an old, established becomes trendy and the property values of that neighborhood skyrocket compared to the rest of the city/municipality. In that case, people who have lived there for a long time can see a significant increase in taxes. For those cases, I would like to see some type of property tax control (similar to rent control) that limits how much the assessed value of a home can rise while it is under the same owner (without significant upgrades to the house). Once the property is sold or a major renovation is done, it would be reassessed to its current market value. This is a completely different case than what is being discussed though, where the whole city sees an increase in property value.

The term you are looking for is gentrification. It has happened in many place within Toronto and it's suburbs.

Maybe in Sudbury you don't do much planning for growth, but here in Ottawa at least, city council does a lot of growth planning. It may not be the type of growth you like (sprawl vs. densification) but you can't say city council isn't planning for it.

One part of growth planning we are weak at though is with schools. The province is very reactive rather than proactive. They will wait until the existing schools are bursting at the seams before they will even consider a proposal to build a new school, which will take another 5 years to plan and construct (and even then they will wait a few years before approving it).

In Sudbury, there is no real demand for housing like down south. A house for $300k is a really nice house, possibly waterfront. What does $300k get down in the GTA? Not much. You can still find some decent properties in London for around $300k that are worth getting. That is what I am talking about.

I wish Ontario would create an Agricultural Land Reserve, like they have in BC to help protect valuable farm land.

I hope that never happens. It is one part of the problem that has caused the skyrocketing prices for land in the GVA. Having said that, the Green Belt in both Toronto and Ottawa was supposed to be a similar thing, and look at what has happened there.

That is not VIA's job. That is the job of local authorities.

So, you are saying that if you know that your project will cause bad things, you are not going to mitigate them somehow? Via could go to the city and tell them they need a solid growth plan before they get HSR extended to it. I'd think the city council would move heaven and earth to ensure the plan is great as they know what a HSR station would mean for the city.

First off, the "explosion" will not be as huge as you think. Yes, there will be more commuters from London. But the kind of folks who have jobs that will allow them to WFH substantially and pay enough to afford an HFR/HSR a few times a week is a rather small set. They are a big enough set to provide base ridership for such a service. But not such a large set that London's growth rate would explode. This is a far bigger issue for cities that haven't seen the same ex-urban growth, like Peterborough. For London, those Toronto yuppies are already coming. They just won't be clogging up the highways now.

Next, don't blame VIA, Queen's Park or the Feds for shit planning in London. Blame the locals. Just look at the war that is going on with SHIFT. I saw the same crap in Ottawa a decade and a half ago. Locals who are convinced that their medium sized metro is some small town that they grew up in, and unwilling to invest in transit. Ottawa was able to push through. How London deals with it, is entirely up to London. They can choose to invest in transit and densify to keep housing affordable and convenient. Or they can keep building the crap Mississauga style subdivisions they are building at virtually every edge of the city today. Their choice.

This isn't about blame. This is about mitigating the inevitable. Yes, housing costs will go up. However, the rate is what causes the problem. The clogged highways is what is the only think keeping the growth slow. Without a good solid plan, HSR could cause housing prices to become unaffordable. Growth is good, unafordable isn't.

And? I have relatives in Toronto who complain about the price of housing there. Should we stop building all infrastructure and trash our immigration policy because some people are unhappy?

Ironically, if we had built this infrastructure decades ago, we would have see far more even development in these satellite cities. London, Kitchener, etc. would have been larger. The GTA would have been smaller. Being larger would have also allowed those cities to offer better amenities and public services. And made them more competitive attracting investment and jobs.

You talk about housing costs in London. Ever asked those young relatives of yours how the job market is? There's a reason my wife sees so many folks she recognizes from London on the subway in Toronto.

I have about 10 cousins who live in London. All are gainfully employed. They all have different education from barely high school to some college. They all make a decent living. As far as they say, the job market is good, if you are willing to work. Some work in insurance. A couple work in manufacturing. Others work in the automotive sector, and a few are in the food service. One even works for a farm. I'd say they have had no issues. We keep talking that f I ever moved, I could get a decent job too. I am one of those weird people that like winter, and their winters are sad.

Additional sidings, if not double track, would be certainly be needed if they were to share the track, but that could be co-ordinated.

Would having all station on a siding be enough?
Maybe double track for the GO sections and then single with sidings for the rest might be enough.

London will never {thank God} become like Kitchener. Unlike KWC, London will never be a Toronto commuter town and GO rail to the city would be a supreme waste of money. It will never become part of the Toronto urban blob as it is simply too far. London, unlike KWC, is also a regional centre and arguably the province's 3rd most important city.

London's fast growth is not due to Toronto commuters but rather Toronto escapees. People who are fleeing Toronto's high prices, horrid traffic, and high pressure do not look to KW as it is simply to close and sort of negates the purpose. London is growing due to seniors cashing out, young people fleeing to a more affordable city, telecommuters who only have to make it into the city once or maximum twice a week, and those simply looking for a more relaxed and less rushed lifestyle. KW & Hamilton simply don't offer those amenities. Conversely London does not offer the affordable alternative for people who still work in Toronto full-time that those 2 cities offer.

Don't be so sure. I never thought Barrie or Kitchener would be connected with GO. It isn't too much of a stretch to see the extensions over time getting to London.

I have always been told that Via does not and will not operate a commuter rail system. If HSR is built, they will. Either that or they make the cost and timing so bad that it is HSR, but not useful for the commuter.
 
The term you are looking for is gentrification. It has happened in many place within Toronto and it's suburbs.



In Sudbury, there is no real demand for housing like down south. A house for $300k is a really nice house, possibly waterfront. What does $300k get down in the GTA? Not much. You can still find some decent properties in London for around $300k that are worth getting. That is what I am talking about.



I hope that never happens. It is one part of the problem that has caused the skyrocketing prices for land in the GVA. Having said that, the Green Belt in both Toronto and Ottawa was supposed to be a similar thing, and look at what has happened there.



So, you are saying that if you know that your project will cause bad things, you are not going to mitigate them somehow? Via could go to the city and tell them they need a solid growth plan before they get HSR extended to it. I'd think the city council would move heaven and earth to ensure the plan is great as they know what a HSR station would mean for the city.



This isn't about blame. This is about mitigating the inevitable. Yes, housing costs will go up. However, the rate is what causes the problem. The clogged highways is what is the only think keeping the growth slow. Without a good solid plan, HSR could cause housing prices to become unaffordable. Growth is good, unafordable isn't.



I have about 10 cousins who live in London. All are gainfully employed. They all have different education from barely high school to some college. They all make a decent living. As far as they say, the job market is good, if you are willing to work. Some work in insurance. A couple work in manufacturing. Others work in the automotive sector, and a few are in the food service. One even works for a farm. I'd say they have had no issues. We keep talking that f I ever moved, I could get a decent job too. I am one of those weird people that like winter, and their winters are sad.



Would having all station on a siding be enough?
Maybe double track for the GO sections and then single with sidings for the rest might be enough.



Don't be so sure. I never thought Barrie or Kitchener would be connected with GO. It isn't too much of a stretch to see the extensions over time getting to London.

I have always been told that Via does not and will not operate a commuter rail system. If HSR is built, they will. Either that or they make the cost and timing so bad that it is HSR, but not useful for the commuter.
Like it or not, they do from Oshawa, Oakville, Guelph, etc.
 

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