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VIA Rail

I actually like the idea of rail-connected 'city-pairs' provided there is a travelling demographic to support them. It's one thing to say that people could take the train but quite another to say they would in sufficient numbers.
I'm not familiar with the prairie pairing, such as Calgary Edmonton and Regina Saskatoon, but assuming provincial capitals, major medical and commerce centres, etc. they seem likely. Winnipeg-Kenora perhaps. I used to live in both the N/E and N/W and I'm not convinced there would be sufficient ridership for Winnipeg-TBay or TBay-SSM (700 road km each). I simply don't see enough non-commercial traffic travelling between these pairs on a halfways regular basis to justify a frequent passenger rail connection (once or twice a week perhaps).
The centres in northern Ontario primarily serve the small communities scattered around them. If they are on the line and if a stop was included then it might be useful to them. The CP/CN connection east of White River to SSM goes essentially through the bush.
Even traffic between centres such as SSM-Sudbury and Sudbury seem questionable. A small sample admittedly, but the folks I know in SSM never travel to Sudbury and our daughter lives in NB and says they or their friends hardly ever go to Sudbury - the odd Costco run perhaps. NB-Ottawa now has bus service but I don't know the ridership.
Some of these links would require significant track work to make them viable. In the NB-Ottawa case, the lack of rail is a problem.
I think the west wins on this one.
Pushing long freight through northern Ontario, especially in the winter is the legacy of our land. Both CN and CP move a lot of traffic between eastern and western Canada via the US as it is.
 
lenaitch said:
I actually like the idea of rail-connected 'city-pairs' provided there is a travelling demographic to support them. It's one thing to say that people could take the train but quite another to say they would in sufficient numbers.
I'm not familiar with the prairie pairing, such as Calgary Edmonton and Regina Saskatoon, but assuming provincial capitals, major medical and commerce centres, etc. they seem likely. Winnipeg-Kenora perhaps. I used to live in both the N/E and N/W and I'm not convinced there would be sufficient ridership for Winnipeg-TBay or TBay-SSM (700 road km each). I simply don't see enough non-commercial traffic travelling between these pairs on a halfways regular basis to justify a frequent passenger rail connection (once or twice a week perhaps).
The centres in northern Ontario primarily serve the small communities scattered around them. If they are on the line and if a stop was included then it might be useful to them. The CP/CN connection east of White River to SSM goes essentially through the bush.
Even traffic between centres such as SSM-Sudbury and Sudbury seem questionable. A small sample admittedly, but the folks I know in SSM never travel to Sudbury and our daughter lives in NB and says they or their friends hardly ever go to Sudbury - the odd Costco run perhaps. NB-Ottawa now has bus service but I don't know the ridership.
Some of these links would require significant track work to make them viable. In the NB-Ottawa case, the lack of rail is a problem.
I think the west wins on this one.
Pushing long freight through northern Ontario, especially in the winter is the legacy of our land. Both CN and CP move a lot of traffic between eastern and western Canada via the US as it is.
Click to expand...

Is it a case o don't due it due to the drive, the distance, the time, or other? A bus isn't much better than a car for comfort. They also face the same weather issues as a car. The HCR and OVR are both in need of maintenance to allow trains to travel at a reasonable speed.

You might get the elderly travelers that are going to places like Sudbury for medical appointments.

The highway between TBay and the Soo might be 700km, but in winter, that highway becomes deadly.

Bringing back the old Canadian route, including the split in North Bay would take putting the rails back down. It is doable, but not likely something that will be done within the next few decades.

Doing what is done on the Corridor to Western Canada would work, but likely would not be something anyone would suggest.
 
micheal_can said:
Is it a case o don't due it due to the drive, the distance, the time, or other? A bus isn't much better than a car for comfort. They also face the same weather issues as a car. The HCR and OVR are both in need of maintenance to allow trains to travel at a reasonable speed.

You might get the elderly travelers that are going to places like Sudbury for medical appointments.

The highway between TBay and the Soo might be 700km, but in winter, that highway becomes deadly.

Bringing back the old Canadian route, including the split in North Bay would take putting the rails back down. It is doable, but not likely something that will be done within the next few decades.

Doing what is done on the Corridor to Western Canada would work, but likely would not be something anyone would suggest.
Click to expand...

Medical needs for sure, and that will be at least a continuing issue. I lived in two towns in the north, both about 3K population; one on the TCH, one not. A lot of small town folks don't go to the city very often because they don't feel a need to. The odd blast down to do some shopping (Walmart, Sears back in the day), maybe catch a restaurant and a movie. Towns that size have grocery, hardware, etc., a few doctors and basic health facilities. It's a different lifestyle. Needs and wants are fairly basic, nobody pines to go the theatre or a club. In more recent years, I imagine Amazon and their ilk has made life even easier. When I lived in the N/W I went to Wpg or TBay maybe once or twice a year. In the N/E, I went to the Soo maybe 4 or 5 times a year (work notwithstanding).
I've driven Hwy 17 literally hundreds of times and it surely can be a white-knuckler in the winter, but unless it's something really important, you stay home - or stay an extra day in the city before heading home. Long haul trucking, for sure, a closed highway is a cost (not turnin' - not earnin') but many take Hwy 11 in the winter to avoid the weather.

As for the HCR, interesting article in Northern Ontario Business:

www.northernontariobusiness.com

Sudbury industrial services company eager to fix short-line rail problems

Diesel Electric Services wants to partner in regional solution for Huron Central Railway if Genesee & Wyoming walks in 2020
www.northernontariobusiness.com www.northernontariobusiness.com

As for OVR, I'm surprised it's hung on as long as it has since they lost the bridge traffic to Smiths Falls. They only have a couple of customers east of NB, although I don't know what their traffic is west to Sudbury.
 
lenaitch said:
Medical needs for sure, and that will be at least a continuing issue. I lived in two towns in the north, both about 3K population; one on the TCH, one not. A lot of small town folks don't go to the city very often because they don't feel a need to. The odd blast down to do some shopping (Walmart, Sears back in the day), maybe catch a restaurant and a movie. Towns that size have grocery, hardware, etc., a few doctors and basic health facilities. It's a different lifestyle. Needs and wants are fairly basic, nobody pines to go the theatre or a club. In more recent years, I imagine Amazon and their ilk has made life even easier. When I lived in the N/W I went to Wpg or TBay maybe once or twice a year. In the N/E, I went to the Soo maybe 4 or 5 times a year (work notwithstanding).
I've driven Hwy 17 literally hundreds of times and it surely can be a white-knuckler in the winter, but unless it's something really important, you stay home - or stay an extra day in the city before heading home. Long haul trucking, for sure, a closed highway is a cost (not turnin' - not earnin') but many take Hwy 11 in the winter to avoid the weather.

As for the HCR, interesting article in Northern Ontario Business:

www.northernontariobusiness.com

Sudbury industrial services company eager to fix short-line rail problems

Diesel Electric Services wants to partner in regional solution for Huron Central Railway if Genesee & Wyoming walks in 2020
www.northernontariobusiness.com www.northernontariobusiness.com

As for OVR, I'm surprised it's hung on as long as it has since they lost the bridge traffic to Smiths Falls. They only have a couple of customers east of NB, although I don't know what their traffic is west to Sudbury.
Click to expand...

OVR is east o Sudbury. HCR is west of Sudbury. OVR hasn't been in the news. HCR has been. I am surprised that ONR hasn't tried to bring them into their ownership.
 
micheal_can said:
OVR is east o Sudbury. HCR is west of Sudbury. OVR hasn't been in the news. HCR has been. I am surprised that ONR hasn't tried to bring them into their ownership.
Click to expand...

You're correct. I said I didn't know what OVR traffic was west to Sudbury. In-house, maybe the ONR would love to take it on, but their operating mandate is controlled by Queen's Park.
 
lenaitch said:
You're correct. I said I didn't know what OVR traffic was west to Sudbury. In-house, maybe the ONR would love to take it on, but their operating mandate is controlled by Queen's Park.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I thought you were getting the 2 mixed up.
 
lenaitch said:
You're correct. I said I didn't know what OVR traffic was west to Sudbury. In-house, maybe the ONR would love to take it on, but their operating mandate is controlled by Queen's Park.
Click to expand...
Would OVR relinquish control of the Sudbury-North Bay segment without requiring ONR to buy them out of North Bay-Mattawa-Témiscaming also? Not that I wouldn't like to see ONR own that segment as a first step to restoring rail service back towards Ottawa, but it would be a substantial financial and operational change I would think?
 
dowlingm said:
Would OVR relinquish control of the Sudbury-North Bay segment without requiring ONR to buy them out of North Bay-Mattawa-Témiscaming also? Not that I wouldn't like to see ONR own that segment as a first step to restoring rail service back towards Ottawa, but it would be a substantial financial and operational change I would think?
Click to expand...

Without knowing the revenue and operating costs of each subdivision that's impossible to answer. As far as I am aware, CP still owns both OVR and HCR trackage, so purchase isn't really necessary. The parent company expects all of its shortlines to be profitable in its own right (which has caused some to wonder why the government gave money to HCR when its parent is profitable).
The industry has already determined that freight service down the Ottawa Valley wasn't profitable. I really don't see how the cost of re-creating the infrastructure solely for a passenger service of unknown frequency could be justified. I'm not of the 'build it and they will come' school; there has to be a market. There hasn't been passenger rail down the valley in decades, no flights and I think one bus per day each way.
 
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Someone posted this to The Canadian Facebook group.

I created a little app for checking arrivals/departures at any Via station because I didn’t like the existing tools on Via’s website... just want to share in case anyone else finds it useful! Please let me know if you notice any bugs or have feature requests
Click to expand...

VIA Rail Live Data

Unfortunately VIA Rail has stopped providing a public API with data on their consists and arrivals/departures. If this data once again becomes available, we will restore this website. Sadly for now it appears there is no way for us to see this data. VIA does still publish live status of their
viarail.live viarail.live
 
^ That implies they can build it "today". The only way to do it would be to pass legislation/use other legal tools to force CN/CP to agree. They would likely retaliate and it would end up in the courts for years and even if the gov one, the courts would probably say that CN/CP have to be fully compensated. CN could also retaliate in other parties of the country, threaten to move their HQ, or pull out of any Metrolinx discussions. No political party has proposed in the recent federal election any specific legal strategy or legislation or process to get HSR done quickly and deal with the freight operators. I'm sure the Greens had broad language but nothing specific.

So, how long do we have to wait to hope for the best?
 
Cobra said:
I'll say it again...

One of the most short-sighted project ever.

Best to build true HSR in today's dollars than in 20 years dollars.
Click to expand...
Via Rail had been barking up that tree for decades with nothing to show for it. So they came up with a plan that actually stands a chance of getting built.

Think of HFR as a stepping stone. If it's successful then there's a better chance that a high speed system will get built in the future. But if we don't build HFR then Via will continue to exist in the purgatory that it's been in for most of its existence and HSR will continue to be a fantasy. If we demand everything we'll continue to get nothing.
 
MisterF said:
Via Rail had been barking up that tree for decades with nothing to show for it. So they came up with a plan that actually stands a chance of getting built.

Think of HFR as a stepping stone. If it's successful then there's a better chance that a high speed system will get built in the future. But if we don't build HFR then Via will continue to exist in the purgatory that it's been in for most of its existence and HSR will continue to be a fantasy. If we demand everything we'll continue to get nothing.
Click to expand...

Added to this, frequency really matters especially when given the general unreliability of the network. Miss your connecting train and there might actually be a chance at getting on the next one same day. It also makes a big difference for people who have 1hr+ journeys just to get to and from a hub like Union in the first place. And for that price you get dedicated tracks so likely decent speeds and reliability, as well as federal dollars going into providing transit to a big chunk of Eastern Ontario that often gets ignored by distant government bodies. HSR would be nice but without a larger robust network to underpin it, would only be useful for people going more or less exclusively from one urban core to another. And who's to say those HSR dollars might not be better spent on thousands of smaller improvements like grade separations, gentling of curves, double tracking, etc which would raise average train speed? Average train speed should be the kind of metric we care about more than having a singular HSR line that's very fast while the rest of the system is in bad shape.
 
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