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VIA Rail

Whether a sealed carriage works or not to permit a stop at Hamilton or elsewhere would be up to CBSA and CBP/Homeland Security to approve irrespective of whether it is used elsewhere. Obviously one hopes for flexibility from government in these matters but the political realities (as well as logistical ones in respect of border guard costs) may say otherwise.

The easier option to my mind is to terminate Amtrak service at Niagara Falls ON (extending all Niagara Falls NY service, not merely the single Maple Leaf) and have a frequent enough service or services from there that if some people's immigration niceties takes longer than others such that the first train westward leaves, then their wait is not excessive. This reduces Amtrak equipment/labour hours while providing more through frequency.
 
dowlingm said:
Whether a sealed carriage works or not to permit a stop at Hamilton or elsewhere would be up to CBSA and CBP/Homeland Security to approve irrespective of whether it is used elsewhere. Obviously one hopes for flexibility from government in these matters but the political realities (as well as logistical ones in respect of border guard costs) may say otherwise.

The easier option to my mind is to terminate Amtrak service at Niagara Falls ON (extending all Niagara Falls NY service, not merely the single Maple Leaf) and have a frequent enough service or services from there that if some people's immigration niceties takes longer than others such that the first train westward leaves, then their wait is not excessive. This reduces Amtrak equipment/labour hours while providing more through frequency.
Click to expand...

My dream is a new rail/bus station in Buffalo that would be the terminus of Toronto-Buffalo trains and through Amtrak trains and Greyhound/Megabus coaches, where there would be an airport-style customs and immigration check, with CBSA pre-clearance. VIA or GO trains would stop on a sealed platform similar to the Amtrak platform at Pacific Central Station in Vancouver. Buses to Canada would be on the Canadian side, and be sealed until they cross the Peace Bridge and a CBSA officer makes a quick check with the driver and removes the seal. (And vice-versa on the US side; a CBP officer checks in with the driver, seals the bus door, and the bus immediately proceeds to the new intermodal station and customers disembark. Buffalo Central Terminal in many ways would be ideal: the track access is great and it makes use of a neglected gem, but it is also too far from Downtown Buffalo and the border. So a new station, somewhere near the existing Exchange Street Station, is necessary.

Advantage is that most travellers aren't delayed when one or two passengers on the bus are held up for secondary inspection or other problems.
 
dowlingm said:
Whether a sealed carriage works or not to permit a stop at Hamilton or elsewhere would be up to CBSA and CBP/Homeland Security to approve irrespective of whether it is used elsewhere. Obviously one hopes for flexibility from government in these matters but the political realities (as well as logistical ones in respect of border guard costs) may say otherwise.

The easier option to my mind is to terminate Amtrak service at Niagara Falls ON (extending all Niagara Falls NY service, not merely the single Maple Leaf) and have a frequent enough service or services from there that if some people's immigration niceties takes longer than others such that the first train westward leaves, then their wait is not excessive. This reduces Amtrak equipment/labour hours while providing more through frequency.
Click to expand...
All-day 2-way electrified express trains to Niagara -- and a billion dollar Wellamd Canal tunnel -- would permit a great connection. I really think this is 2040s stuff (early 2030s at best) but a natural progress of outwards GO electrification.

I hope Metrolinx plans to use concrete ties for that apparent third track between West Harbour and St. Catharines (I totalled up the planned km of track, it represents a third track when mathing the Confederation and Niagara Falls plans together) -- this is a straight arrow corridor capable of 300kph someday into the future, and well-specced trackage could be the incremental first step to an express/higher speed/highspeed service between Toronto and the border -- but I see wooden ties currently being installed between Hamilton Junction and West Harbour.
 
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I'm not suggesting VIA does this: I am just curious to if it would be possible and how effective it would be.

Amtrak is looking to replace its Acela fleet.

I know Via is looking for new equipment, but im just curious how effective that fleet would be if VIA were to buy it, refurbish it and use it on the Toronto -> Montreal corridor (with electrification of course)

Its my understanding that the Acela was designed for "sub high speed" service on existing trackage.

However, the North east corridor is quite curvy, and thus it rarely meets its top speed.

Would it be more successful on the CN Mainline to Montreal?
 
robmausser said:
I'm not suggesting VIA does this: I am just curious to if it would be possible and how effective it would be.

Amtrak is looking to replace its Acela fleet.

I know Via is looking for new equipment, but im just curious how effective that fleet would be if VIA were to buy it, refurbish it and use it on the Toronto -> Montreal corridor (with electrification of course)

Its my understanding that the Acela was designed for "sub high speed" service on existing trackage.

However, the North east corridor is quite curvy, and thus it rarely meets its top speed.

Would it be more successful on the CN Mainline to Montreal?
Click to expand...

Anything is possible if you throw enough money at it, of course. But to make the business case for it, that's a different question.

I would say that no - buying the Acela equipment and refurbishing it for VIA would not make sense for a host of reasons. For one, they will not be in particularly good shape by the time they make it north of the border. (They aren't even in particularly good shape now.) There would be a bunch of modifications that would likely need to be done to them before they were able to enter service, and there may even be ROW concerns due to the width of the cars.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
dowlingm said:
Whether a sealed carriage works or not to permit a stop at Hamilton or elsewhere would be up to CBSA and CBP/Homeland Security to approve irrespective of whether it is used elsewhere. Obviously one hopes for flexibility from government in these matters but the political realities (as well as logistical ones in respect of border guard costs) may say otherwise.

The easier option to my mind is to terminate Amtrak service at Niagara Falls ON (extending all Niagara Falls NY service, not merely the single Maple Leaf) and have a frequent enough service or services from there that if some people's immigration niceties takes longer than others such that the first train westward leaves, then their wait is not excessive. This reduces Amtrak equipment/labour hours while providing more through frequency.
Click to expand...

What do you mean by a sealed carriage? What I had in mind was a customs-sealed platform at Hamilton Harbour where anyone could get off from any car. Once inside the station, they only way out is through border control.

It goes without saying that anything cross-border needs to be approved by CBSA etc., but this particular suggestion is no different than the existing operation in Vancouver and the planned one in Montréal so there's no technical obstacle other than the construction cost of the new customs facilities and the operational cost of staffing the station(s). Hamilton and Toronto already have international airports so there may be a possibility for a shared pool of customs agents.

ShonTron said:
My dream is a new rail/bus station in Buffalo that would be the terminus of Toronto-Buffalo trains and through Amtrak trains and Greyhound/Megabus coaches, where there would be an airport-style customs and immigration check, with CBSA pre-clearance. VIA or GO trains would stop on a sealed platform similar to the Amtrak platform at Pacific Central Station in Vancouver. Buses to Canada would be on the Canadian side, and be sealed until they cross the Peace Bridge and a CBSA officer makes a quick check with the driver and removes the seal. (And vice-versa on the US side; a CBP officer checks in with the driver, seals the bus door, and the bus immediately proceeds to the new intermodal station and customers disembark. Buffalo Central Terminal in many ways would be ideal: the track access is great and it makes use of a neglected gem, but it is also too far from Downtown Buffalo and the border. So a new station, somewhere near the existing Exchange Street Station, is necessary.

Advantage is that most travellers aren't delayed when one or two passengers on the bus are held up for secondary inspection or other problems.
Click to expand...

Similarly on the line to Chicago, Michigan Central Station in Detroit is a huge abandoned train station more than capable of handling the number of terminating trains and transferring passengers from the Can/US rail interface - and it's ideally situated right at the entrance to the Detroit-Windsor tunnel.
 
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reaperexpress said:
Wait... the Beachburg Subdivision? Isn't that abandoned?



Dropping all but one or two of the Canadian stops would obviously be a problem if VIA/Amtrak is the only rail service in the corridor, but once GO is serving the local destinations it wouldn't be such a big deal. In fact, regardless of customs requirements, it's better to have the long-distance trains make as few stops as possible to keep times competitive between major cities, while overlapping regional services provide service to the communities in between.
View attachment 84198



With current tracks, the travel time to Chicago would be about 10 hours. Toronto-Windsor currently takes 4h13 and Detroit-Chicago takes 5h24. A 10-hour trip is pretty long, but that's not necessarily a dealbreaker. The Chicago-Toronto route happens to have Detroit smack in the middle of it, which makes for a lot of ideal intercity rail-distance trips. Chicago-Detroit and Windsor-Toronto services already operate, and are both planned to get upgraded infrastructure and increased service. At least a couple of those trains should run the full route from Chicago to Toronto because they could attract some long-distance travellers who would otherwise be dissuaded by the transfer in Detroit. There doesn't need to be a full trainload of Chicago-Toronto customers to be worthwhile, because each half of the route is justified in its own right and would be operated regardless.

10 hours also happens to be the ideal duration for an overnight train. You can leave one city at around 10PM and arrive in the other at 8AM - with just enough time for a standard 8-hour sleep in between. Such trains could be more profitable than typical long-distance sleeper trains because they avoid the need for expensive dining and recreation facilities - a single café/lounge car would do. I think the prospect of falling asleep in Toronto and waking up in Chicago or New York would be very attractive even if sleeper tickets are several times more expensive than daytime train tickets, because they directly compete with an extra night in a hotel. Economy-class coach cars would also provide a budget overnight option and make the train able to serve short trips within the daytime segments (such as Toronto-Buffalo and Albany-New York).

Here's a graphic I made showing roughly what time an overnight train might arrive in various American cities if it left Toronto at 10pm.
View attachment 84206

Even with ordinary-speed rail I could see the following daily services operating out of a Toronto pre-clearance facility:
- Toronto-New York daytime (existing)
- Toronto-Buffalo daytime
- Toronto-New York overnight
- Toronto-Chicago daytime
- Toronto-Chicago overnight
That's 5 departures per day, which is more than the current pre-clearance facility in Vancouver and the proposed one in Montréal combined.



A pre-clearance facility would definitely make Amtrak an attractive option for Toronto-Buffalo travel. A single trip leaving Buffalo for Toronto in the morning and returning to Buffalo in the afternoon would nicely fill the gap between daytime and overnight services to New York:
View attachment 84227
Click to expand...

Like the various ideas; love the graphic!

However, I remain of the opinion that Toronto-Buffalo needs to be more frequent............

Also, I the run time you quote is probably right on the money, but it needs to be better.

Given track alignments and new and better rolling stock, even w/o high-speed, we should be able to get Toronto-Buffalo well under 3 hours.
 
In the event that Amtrak make Acela available for purchase (rather than use them on Keystone Service) I think that says all that needs saying about whether VIA should touch them. But then I'm not totally convinced AMT or GO won't let themselves be suckered into buying the HHP8s when the leases expire...
 
Given the amount of Canadians that fly out of Buffalo, couldn't a case be made for hourly or bi-hourly service from Toronto or Hamilton to Buffalo?
 
kEiThZ said:
Given the amount of Canadians that fly out of Buffalo, couldn't a case be made for hourly or bi-hourly service from Toronto or Hamilton to Buffalo?
Click to expand...

There is a problem with the rationale - so we are going to subsidize (because the line isn't likely to ever break even) riders so that they can avoid added fees and higher prices at Canadian airports?

AoD
 
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AlvinofDiaspar said:
There is a problem with the rationale - so we are going to subsidize (because the line isn't likely to ever break even) riders so that they can avoid added fees and higher prices at Canadian airports?

AoD
Click to expand...

I would ask this differently..... what (after collecting user fees) is the subsidy paid on behalf of an air traveller using a GTA airport? Is the subsidy to take them to Buffalo by rail a better deal?

What pricing for the rail shuttle could be offered, minimising a subsidy, given that the user will still pay less overall than they would if they flew from the GTA airport and incurred the whopping user fees? (not to mention paying a mor competitive fare)

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
I would ask this differently..... what (after collecting user fees) is the subsidy paid on behalf of an air traveller using a GTA airport? Is the subsidy to take them to Buffalo by rail a better deal?

What pricing for the rail shuttle could be offered, minimising a subsidy, given that the user will still pay less overall than they would if they flew from the GTA airport and incurred the whopping user fees? (not to mention paying a mor competitive fare)

- Paul
Click to expand...
All the points above even satisfied, here's the bottom line:
greyhound.png
14:30
17:50 3h 20m Greyhound

Cheapest$12

greyhound.png
21:15
23:45 2h 30m Greyhound

Fastest$16
11 similar buses
https://www.busbud.com/en-ca/bus-toronto-buffalo/r/dpz88g-dpxgvp

And that's *right to the airport*!

If someone is flying out of Buffalo, then they're bargain hunters (it's been many years since I did this, I wouldn't do it now, I'd consider Hamilton, but even that's a slog), and here's the bargain fares by bus offered. There's no way to compete with this. And time? Greyhound will make it there faster. Consider the present GO Hamilton Express bus, considerably faster than the train (time of day a proviso).
 
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