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VIA Rail

I’ve crossed at Coburn Gore before, and while the Canadian facility is extremely basic, there is still some kind of camera system or something for the US crossing. It’s only a single entry stall and is still very basic, but even those minor crossing have some additional level of security.
 
Northern Light said:
Putting aside that all of this has very little to do with VIA rail per se..............

That is a non-starter.

I do think a market exists for an Amtrak/VIA Buffalo-Toronto shuttle; but it does face the same constraints at GO in respect of crossing the canal; would require pre-clearance customs be attractive.
Click to expand...
  • GO Transit (exclusively) Toronto-NF ON
  • Amtrak (exclusively) Buffalo Depew-NF ON (dedicated/secured 48in platform on stub track)
  • USCBP check moves to NF ON
  • NY/Amtrak agree to truncate Maple Leaf but extend NF NY service back to NF ON
It's a bit of a kick in the pants for VIA but would be
  • a significant capacity increase on the Canal Bridge slot pair between NF ON and Toronto,
  • no need for a change in GO's regulatory status
  • would save Amtrak from having to have their equipment cross the border
  • would allow for only GO-height platforms between NF-ON and Aldershot while providing an accessible experience
  • create a basis to seek an additional service or services during timings more favourable than 280/284's at present (where Empire Service rises to the point where additional Depew-Albany service is contemplated)
 
dowlingm said:
  • GO Transit (exclusively) Toronto-NF ON
  • Amtrak (exclusively) Buffalo Depew-NF ON (dedicated/secured 48in platform on stub track)
  • USCBP check moves to NF ON
  • NY/Amtrak agree to truncate Maple Leaf but extend NF NY service back to NF ON
It's a bit of a kick in the pants for VIA but would be
  • a significant capacity increase on the Canal Bridge slot pair between NF ON and Toronto,
  • no need for a change in GO's regulatory status
  • would save Amtrak from having to have their equipment cross the border
  • would allow for only GO-height platforms between NF-ON and Aldershot while providing an accessible experience
  • create a basis to seek an additional service or services during timings more favourable than 280/284's at present (where Empire Service rises to the point where additional Depew-Albany service is contemplated)
Click to expand...

Interesting idea......... @Urban Sky could comment on if there would be any issue w/Amtrak crews operating the train for that brief distance inside Canada from VIA's perspective.

Beyond that, I do see a few challenges. Given that Empire / Maple Leaf Service has a real challenge staying on time, even before factoring in customs, you would have to have a GO Train expressly dedicated to meeting that Amtrak train, which poses schedule/clearance issues.

There is the matter that VIA would not longer be in a position to sell tickets to NYC and GO and Amtrak would have to code-share to allow the NYC/Rochester/Buffalo ticket to be bought through one or the other.

While Empire service isn't luxurious by any means, I would consider GO rolling stock/service a downgrade, that might impact traffic levels.

You're also now potentially adding customs clearance delays for the Empire service which currently doesn't have that issue.
 
LemonCondo said:
Ah the joys of cross-border twin-cities with the same names, they have never caused anybody confusion ever!
Click to expand...
Could they not make the
crs1026 said:
PS: I was reminded that CN still owns a good chunk of the Komoka-Windsor line. So any expansion needs to keep that in view.

Likely their interest is in a fairly small volume of traffic to/from Windsor, but whether they would be willing to sell (and retain some measure of operating rights) is anybody's guess.

- Paul
Click to expand...
VIA owns the Chatham sub between Windsor and Komoka and has the capacity to be increased to 2 tracks. There are some passing tracks so they may need to make them longer. The issue is between Aldershot and Komoka. Especially through London.
 
Bordercollie said:
VIA owns the Chatham sub between Windsor and Komoka and has the capacity to be increased to 2 tracks. There are some passing tracks so they may need to make them longer. The issue is between Aldershot and Komoka. Especially through London.
Click to expand...

A variety of sources including the RAC's Canadian Rail Atlas confirm that CN still owns the Chatham Sub from Komoka to Bloomfield, MP 63.8, just west of the Chatham depot. VIA only owns from Bloomfield west to Lacasse, MP 99.1 which is 6 miles east of the Windsor VIA depot.

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
A variety of sources including the RAC's Canadian Rail Atlas confirm that CN still owns the Chatham Sub from Komoka to Bloomfield, MP 63.8, just west of the Chatham depot. VIA only owns from Bloomfield west to Lacasse, MP 99.1 which is 6 miles east of the Windsor VIA depot.

- Paul
Click to expand...
geohub.lio.gov.on.ca

Ontario Railway Network (ORWN)

This dataset provides enhanced spatial and attribute data for a suite of seven data classes that form the Ontario Railway Network.
geohub.lio.gov.on.ca
This map indicates that VIA is the operator and owner. Am I looking at it wrong?
 
Bordercollie said:
geohub.lio.gov.on.ca

Ontario Railway Network (ORWN)

This dataset provides enhanced spatial and attribute data for a suite of seven data classes that form the Ontario Railway Network.
geohub.lio.gov.on.ca
This map indicates that VIA is the operator and owner. Am I looking at it wrong?
Click to expand...
You are definitely looking at it differently than me:
86905B9A-D79A-4510-A4C7-15C7052C7F38.jpeg
 
crs1026 said:
A variety of sources including the RAC's Canadian Rail Atlasconfirm that CN still owns the Chatham Sub from Komoka to Bloomfield, MP 63.8, just west of the Chatham depot. VIA only owns from Bloomfield west to Lacasse, MP 99.1 which is 6 miles east of the Windsor VIA depot.

- Paul
Click to expand...
VIA now seems to own all the way to Windsor (i.e. beyond MP 99.1), according to its Triennial Plan:
05CFF3C3-3B4F-4A39-8185-EDDAFAFC528E.jpeg
 
^I stand corrected - VIA did buy the line from Lacasse to Windsor from CN a few years back.

To return to my original point and clarification…… CN clearly owns part of the Chatham Sub, which complicates any upgrading of service to Windsor.

- Paul
 
Northern Light said:
Interesting idea......... @Urban Sky could comment on if there would be any issue w/Amtrak crews operating the train for that brief distance inside Canada from VIA's perspective.

Beyond that, I do see a few challenges. Given that Empire / Maple Leaf Service has a real challenge staying on time, even before factoring in customs, you would have to have a GO Train expressly dedicated to meeting that Amtrak train, which poses schedule/clearance issues.

There is the matter that VIA would not longer be in a position to sell tickets to NYC and GO and Amtrak would have to code-share to allow the NYC/Rochester/Buffalo ticket to be bought through one or the other.

While Empire service isn't luxurious by any means, I would consider GO rolling stock/service a downgrade, that might impact traffic levels.

You're also now potentially adding customs clearance delays for the Empire service which currently doesn't have that issue.
Click to expand...
I don‘t see any issues with Amtrak extending all its Empire State services into NF/ON other than that you would need to have a sufficiently-sized border facility on the Ontario side which hosts Canadian and US border services.

However, this doesn’t change that there is no way to make rail travel between Toronto and New York City seamless, given the reality of post-9/11 border checks and the impracticality of installing pre-clearing facilities in Union Station. Therefore you‘ll have to disrupt the journey at the border and the only logical place for this is Buffalo, as it would at least allow for seamless Toronto-Buffalo travel, which is the by-far most-promissing cross-border city pair*. GO and Amtrak trains could still continue to operate to Niagara Falls, but without crossing the border, but the only way to create a competitive cross-border service is to route it through the Welland tunnel and then across the river at Fort Erie…

*Similarly, the only way to make Toronto-Chicago somewhat workable by train is to have VIA and Amtrak connect in Detroit and move all border procedures to Michigan Central Station…
 
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Having CBSA operate in the US (such as at Michigan Central) would make sense, but given CBSA doesn’t currently operate any extra-territorial facilities, I wonder if rail crossings are where it would make financial sense for it to start - I suspect there would be a lot more pressure to start it in US airports which would relieve inbound passenger handling congestion at Canadian airports. USCBP have a bit more experience with this; however, even this is going quite slowly in Montreal.

The point I was making about Niagara Falls is that if you are going to make people disembark to have themselves and their baggage checked, running through trains doesn’t make much sense. Empty out the inbound, do a quick clean of the trainset, load up the pre cleared outbound passengers, and off you go. Assuming you have a bidirectional trainset, of course…
 
Urban Sky said:
I don‘t see any issues with Amtrak extending all its Empire State services into NF/ON other than that you would need to have a sufficiently-sized border facility on the Ontario side which hosts Canadian and US border services.

However, this doesn’t change that there is no way to make rail travel between Toronto and New York City seamless, given the reality of post-9/11 border checks and the impracticality of installing pre-clearing facilities in Union Station. Therefore you‘ll have to disrupt the journey at the border and the only logical place for this is Buffalo, as it would at least allow for seamless Toronto-Buffalo travel, which is the by-far most-promissing cross-border city pair*. GO and Amtrak trains could still continue to operate to Niagara Falls, but without crossing the border, but the only way to create a competitive cross-border service is to route it through the Welland tunnel and then across the river at Fort Erie…

*Similarly, the only way to make Toronto-Chicago somewhat workable by train is to have VIA and Amtrak connect in Detroit and move all border procedures to Michigan Central Station…
Click to expand...
I don't see any realistic way for GO to operate into the US.
 
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