VIA Rail

[Northern Light]

The Globe and Mail Editorial Board has chimed in on the HFR project:

Globe editorial: A better Via Rail might be possible, if only so much political baggage wasn’t on board

Via Rail is right to look at improving its most lucrative (or, rather, least unprofitable) business. But its proposal is a compromise solution, part business and part politics

www.theglobeandmail.com

In summary, HFR maybe, though nix service to Quebec City being part of the proposal; Toronto-Montreal travel time is too high, we're suspicious the Liberals are selling us some thin air ahead of an election.

 

[nrb]

Can someone explain to me why this should be routed through Peterborough instead of building a dedicated line along the lakeshore?

The population differences between the two are massive.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I am beyond disappointed at this immature response from someone who is supposed to be a minister-in-waiting. Leaves me with the impression that the CPC just sees VIA Rail as something useless that only Laurentian elites care about.

But really, hasn't it always been their unstated stand?

AoD

 

[smallspy]

Can someone explain to me why this should be routed through Peterborough instead of building a dedicated line along the lakeshore?

The population differences between the two are massive.

There is a potential former route - and thus, land - to the north through Peterborough.

There is no such thing to the south along the lake's shore.

Dan

 

[robmausser]

Can someone explain to me why this should be routed through Peterborough instead of building a dedicated line along the lakeshore?

The population differences between the two are massive.

It has to do with rail ownership.

CN and CP own the two rail lines along the lakeshore. They are two of some of the largest companies in Canada. They hold a huge amount of political clout.

Both do not want passenger rail or electrification anywhere near their lines. They allow VIA on their lines now, but as an afterthought.

In the 2000's an attempt was made to work with CN to add passing tracks etc in their corridors for VIA to pass their slow freight on. Not only did CN overcharge VIA for the work, but they made the agreement as such that they can use the passing tracks for their freight as well. Guess what happened, they did exactly that and we spent millions of taxpayer dollars to give CN new tracks for their freight. Passenger rail meanwhile got worse.

Thats the problem, all work in the lakeshore corridors, to even add tracks for dedicated rail, have to be done by CN or CP if its in their corridors. You can forget about electrification too.

The government buying up CN or CP is an unaffordable acquisition. To build their own rail lines in the lakeshore area would require massive land expropriation and would again be way too expensive and have NIMBY backlash out the wazoo.

The only feasible option in our current political climate is to buy up disused and rarely used rail lines in the north, upgrade them to Class 6 rail and electrify them.

And honestly, its not so bad. Other than the fact that there are some curve issues we have to deal with, it means we dont have to deal with CN/CP, and this train service is supposed to be an express service between major cities. Its not meant to be a milk run to service all the small towns along the way. Leave that up to the existing train service along Lakeshore. Besides, Having two services is better than one. As well, this train route is more direct to Ottawa, which is a huge destination in its own right, moreso than Kingston or other other smaller towns along Lakeshore.

 

[roger1818]

https://www.standard-freeholder.com/news/local-news/via-rail-statement-hfr-will-result-in-better-service-for-cornwall

 

[nrb]

It has to do with rail ownership.

CN and CP own the two rail lines along the lakeshore. They are two of some of the largest companies in Canada. They hold a huge amount of political clout.

Both do not want passenger rail or electrification anywhere near their lines. They allow VIA on their lines now, but as an afterthought.

In the 2000's an attempt was made to work with CN to add passing tracks etc in their corridors for VIA to pass their slow freight on. Not only did CN overcharge VIA for the work, but they made the agreement as such that they can use the passing tracks for their freight as well. Guess what happened, they did exactly that and we spent millions of taxpayer dollars to give CN new tracks for their freight. Passenger rail meanwhile got worse.

Thats the problem, all work in the lakeshore corridors, to even add tracks for dedicated rail, have to be done by CN or CP if its in their corridors. You can forget about electrification too.

The government buying up CN or CP is an unaffordable acquisition. To build their own rail lines in the lakeshore area would require massive land expropriation and would again be way too expensive and have NIMBY backlash out the wazoo.

The only feasible option in our current political climate is to buy up disused and rarely used rail lines in the north, upgrade them to Class 6 rail and electrify them.

And honestly, its not so bad. Other than the fact that there are some curve issues we have to deal with, it means we dont have to deal with CN/CP, and this train service is supposed to be an express service between major cities. Its not meant to be a milk run to service all the small towns along the way. Leave that up to the existing train service along Lakeshore. Besides, Having two services is better than one. As well, this train route is more direct to Ottawa, which is a huge destination in its own right, moreso than Kingston or other other smaller towns along Lakeshore.

Thanks for the explanation. But doesn't cp own the lines through Peterborough as well? There will still be land expropriation, and there is still freight being run on here from nephton, isn't there? I'm very much skeptical about this due to the politics and costs involved. A stop in Kingston and Belleville isn't any different than stops in Peterborough and Smiths falls (population 8,800).

 

[robmausser]

Thanks for the explanation. But doesn't cp own the lines through Peterborough as well? There will still be land expropriation, and there is still freight being run on here from nephton, isn't there? I'm very much skeptical about this due to the politics and costs involved. A stop in Kingston and Belleville isn't any different than stops in Peterborough and Smiths falls (population 8,800).

While CP owns the lines through Peterborough, its a very seldom used branch line, not their mainline to the south.

They are willing to sell off the branch line to Via, and only run the odd freight train at night, when VIA isnt operating.

 

[roger1818]

Thanks for the explanation. But doesn't cp own the lines through Peterborough as well? There will still be land expropriation, and there is still freight being run on here from nephton, isn't there? I'm very much skeptical about this due to the politics and costs involved. A stop in Kingston and Belleville isn't any different than stops in Peterborough and Smiths falls (population 8,800).

They do, but it isn't their main line. CP runs 3 trains a week each way on the Havelock Sub. and are only maintaining it to Class 1 standards, so it takes 12 hours to get from the Toronto Yard to Havelock. By letting VIA buy/lease the ROW and improve the track, CP can do the same trip in a couple hours, allowing them to do the return trip in one night (while VIA isn't using the track), which will save a lot of money in labour and equipment utilization, so it is a win/win.

 

[OntarioOnTheMove]

Ocean train from Halifax to Montreal to resume August 11th

VIA Rail's 'Ocean' service will restart with the first departure from Halifax on Wednesday August 11th. Service will be once per week, with the first departure from Montreal on Sunday August 15th.

www.transportaction.ca

 

[gibsonm]

I still don’t see any substantial speed increases through these small incremental upgrades that will take forever to add up to much. Toronto-Ottawa will be somewhat faster. Without a dedicated passenger line and high speed train sets, Toronto-Montreal won’t be substantively improved. The Parliament Budget Officer said that the feds could spend another $18 billion on infrastructure without putting the country’s balance sheet at risk. The only way that short-run flights can be eliminated to help the country meet climate change goals is if there’s a viable high speed rail option. France has done this. We can’t increase our productivity in the movement of people and goods without major rail investments. China is leaps and bounds ahead on high speed rail. The current VIA plan doesn’t go far enough.

 

[DirectionNorth]

I still don’t see any substantial speed increases through these small incremental upgrades that will take forever to add up to much.

The point is, to reduce delays from freight trackage, which currently delays 1/3 of trains.

Toronto-Ottawa will be somewhat faster. Without a dedicated passenger line and high speed train sets, Toronto-Montreal won’t be substantively improved. The Parliament Budget Officer said that the feds could spend another $18 billion on infrastructure without putting the country’s balance sheet at risk.

Your HSR will take all of that for TOM. There are better investments, like shutting down coal and improving EV infrastructure.

The only way that short-run flights can be eliminated to help the country meet climate change goals is if there’s a viable high speed rail option.

No, it's not. Drivers don't drive right now because of its speed, they drive because train service is unreliable. Only the rich might take a plane on this corridor, without transfers elsewhere. It's too cumbersome. If we can get drivers off the road, we're good.

France has done this. We can’t increase our productivity in the movement of people and goods without major rail investments. China is leaps and bounds ahead on high speed rail.

This again? "DoH cHiNa" seems to be a rallying cry at this stage. We. Don't. Have. The. Population. Size. Or. Density. Of. China. And their system is running into trouble as they build HSR for the sake of HSR, now. Which is what some people are asking for.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Caixin/China-looks-to-slow-growth-of-struggling-high-speed-rail
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/a...need-another-125-000-miles-of-high-speed-rail
https://factsanddetails.com/china/cat13/sub86/item1848.html
https://www.taiwangazette.org/news/...inas-high-speed-rail-and-high-speed-evictions
https://www.ft.com/content/ca28f58a-955d-11e8-b747-fb1e803ee64e

And tickets in China aren't cheap. Per person, the cost is approximately $100 CAD without taxes. I'm not paying $400 for my family to go to Toronto, which is $20 per person per hour. I'll drive.

The current VIA plan doesn’t go far enough.

It doesn't. The point is to create a constituency for VIA Rail, something it doesn't have.

 

[Allandale25]

Havelock holds on to hope for a return to railway glory days

HAVELOCK — With the federal government announcement Thursday that a new inter-city, high-frequency rail service will be coming to Peterborough via a Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal-Quebec City corridor, Havelock-Belmont-Methuen Township Mayor Jim Martin

www.thepeterboroughexaminer.com

 

[EnviroTO]

Can someone explain to me why this should be routed through Peterborough instead of building a dedicated line along the lakeshore?

The population differences between the two are massive.

The availability of an old unused (for most of the route) existing right of way. Areas with large population make bad neighbours for new railway lines. Complaints about clearing out the new rights of way, issues with evictions, noise complaints, greater need to accept the risk of level crossings or to build grade separations, cost, etc.

 

[gibsonm]

Running more EV’s, using more polluting lithium batteries, is now the answer to fixing rail in the busiest corridor of the country? This incremental approach doesn’t add up to much if train trips are still going to take well over 4 hours between Toronto and Montreal. It’s a weak plan. I’ll continue to drive.