VIA Rail

[kEiThZ]

At the point, I see the lack of Corridor progress as a function of VIA running the Corridor. The feds under-resource VIA. And then put on a whole bunch of mandates on which they have to spend money. There's also the lack of coordination with GO.

Post-RER how would VIA services even work? Doesn't look like VIA has planned substantially for that. Seems to me like Corridor services should be integrated into GO as some kind of express and intercity service.

 

[crs1026]

At the point, I see the lack of Corridor progress as a function of VIA running the Corridor. The feds under-resource VIA. And then put on a whole bunch of mandates on which they have to spend money. There's also the lack of coordination with GO.

Post-RER how would VIA services even work? Doesn't look like VIA has planned substantially for that. Seems to me like Corridor services should be integrated into GO as some kind of express and intercity service.

We might not ever all agree on the details, but the absence of a VIA Rail Canada Act that lays out what VIA is expected to achieve and what its rights/legal powers/obligations are would certainly clear the air. The absence of such an Act is the elephant in the room.

It's curious how there can be such an explicit dialog between Municipalities, Provinces, and Ottawa over who pays for what in the area of urban transit, versus how murky the dialogue about intercity passenger rail is. The transit dialogue is seized on by the pols to create drama and discord.....and it's more than a bit disfunctional.... but it gets to a clear answer, like it or not.

I do believe that Ottawa has always appreciated and enabled the vagueness around VIA. It's a way of holding one's cards to one's chest in hopes the Provinces get impatient and take things on at their own expense. Then Ottawa can swoop in and offer money (which is never a barrier in the end, for anything Ottawa does) thereby basking in the credit without any accountability for the fine details.

- Paul

 

[tmlittle]

Maybe I’m a pessimist, but when the VIA rep responds to criticism about the impacts of HFR with “don’t worry, it’s years away”.....

Cornwall Council gets out in front of VIA changes by voicing concerns

- Paul

I don't blame the Cornwall council for this, though I'm a bit surprised by the aggressiveness of their language. Lots of smaller Ontario cities are having demographic and relevance anxieties and they know that if they want a younger population they need good connections to cities like Toronto or Montreal. This feels like them acting defensively so that if service through there does get screwed up somehow (Via: "we didn't cancel that trip, we moved it to the new line") they are pre-mobilized and ready to campaign about it.

We might not ever all agree on the details, but the absence of a VIA Rail Canada Act that lays out what VIA is expected to achieve and what its rights/legal powers/obligations are would certainly clear the air. The absence of such an Act is the elephant in the room.

It's curious how there can be such an explicit dialog between Municipalities, Provinces, and Ottawa over who pays for what in the area of urban transit, versus how murky the dialogue about intercity passenger rail is. The transit dialogue is seized on by the pols to create drama and discord.....and it's more than a bit disfunctional.... but it gets to a clear answer, like it or not.

I do believe that Ottawa has always appreciated and enabled the vagueness around VIA. It's a way of holding one's cards to one's chest in hopes the Provinces get impatient and take things on at their own expense. Then Ottawa can swoop in and offer money (which is never a barrier in the end, for anything Ottawa does) thereby basking in the credit without any accountability for the fine details.

- Paul

Or, more often than not, any obligation to chip in on operating expenses.

 

[kEiThZ]

Town represented by conservatives at the federal and provincial level wants rail? Doesn't look like they vote for it....

 

[sacred]

Town represented by conservatives at the federal and provincial level wants rail? Doesn't look like they vote for it....

Yeah… it only they voted for the Liberals, known for funding passenger rail …

 

[kEiThZ]

Yeah… it only they voted for the Liberals, known for funding passenger rail …

I'm not happy with what the Liberals have done. But at least we have billion dollar rolling stock. All the CPC ever gave us was the Kingston boondoggle.

 

[EnviroTO]

The cab car looks pretty good. Can't wait to see these things enter testing in the corridor.

 

[Mcurtis]

With both CN and CP in a bit of a bidding war in order to purchase Kansas City Southern. Is there an opportunity for Via Rail to try and use that large purchase to their advantage? I was thinking something to the terms of if CN completes the purchase. Agreeing to pay for some improvements along the main corridor presently from Toronto to Ottawa/Montreal in return for increased reliability/train allotments. I know they have been raked over the coals previously for this by CN but would they be in a more willing partnership position after the purchase? Subsquently, could they go to CP and attempt to work with them on some of their lines; seeing as how they may lose out on the purchase. I would assume that VIA Rail likely pays significant amounts to run on both of those lines were they do and CN could benefit from additional infrastructure and CP from additional revenue if VIA can run more trains/trains to new areas potentially. I don't know the preexisiting arrangements between the main two lines and the federal government on that issue. Does anyone see any opportunities for VIA rail in this regard at all? both competitors trying to drop big cash (debt, stock purchases etc)?

 

[crs1026]

^Much as I would love to see some improvement, I think that putting pressure on CP/CN right now would be counterproductive. Everything related to KCs is being handled in US regulatory space, and creating a “second front” would just annoy them at a time where they are in a pretty tough race that demands their full managerial attention. Also, it would risk playing favourites between the two and that too would provoke a reaction.
The financial stakes are very high, and the impact of that can‘t help but spill over into other matters, VIA included. I’m actually surprised that CN has stayed silent about HFR given that they are affected.

- Paul

 

[EnviroTO]

I don't see any benefit. The goal of these mergers is to get more freight onto the tracks. As with other investments VIA has made in the past along corridors they don't own, they only seem to create extra tracks for segments of the route that CN will put VIA onto to wait for freight. The CN plan is to get freight to and from Prince Rupert and Halifax and with the KC Southern purchase the goal would be to get Mexican manufacturing (which is price competitive in the world market) to Halifax for shipping to Europe, and the CN mainline through Toronto is the route from Mexico to Halifax via Chicago.

 

[Urban Sky]

With both CN and CP in a bit of a bidding war in order to purchase Kansas City Southern. Is there an opportunity for Via Rail to try and use that large purchase to their advantage? I was thinking something to the terms of if CN completes the purchase. Agreeing to pay for some improvements along the main corridor presently from Toronto to Ottawa/Montreal in return for increased reliability/train allotments. I know they have been raked over the coals previously for this by CN but would they be in a more willing partnership position after the purchase? Subsquently, could they go to CP and attempt to work with them on some of their lines; seeing as how they may lose out on the purchase. I would assume that VIA Rail likely pays significant amounts to run on both of those lines were they do and CN could benefit from additional infrastructure and CP from additional revenue if VIA can run more trains/trains to new areas potentially. I don't know the preexisiting arrangements between the main two lines and the federal government on that issue. Does anyone see any opportunities for VIA rail in this regard at all? both competitors trying to drop big cash (debt, stock purchases etc)?

I'm not sure what financial leverage you believe that VIA holds over CN, but the KCS purchase offer translates to approximately C$40 billion, which would be enough to pay for VIA's operating budget (at its current rate of $690 million in 2019) until the late 2070s or for its operating subsidy ($290 million in 2019) until well into the second half of the 22nd century...

 

[robmausser]

I would assume that VIA Rail likely pays significant amounts to run on both of those lines were they do and CN could benefit from additional infrastructure and CP from additional revenue if VIA can run more trains/trains to new areas potentially.

Unfortuantely the assumption is wrong. Every VIA train that runs on CN/CP is a loss because they could have made more money running a freight train at that time.

CN only does so because of the past crown corporation connections to the federal government, getting subsidies from them, and a simple understanding from CP/CN that if they don't cooperate at a minimum with the federal governments mandate to have passenger rail services for its people, there would be consequences of such actions.

 

[roger1818]

I'm really getting frustrated with the lack of movement on HFR.

Is VIA even the right entity to do this? Maybe the Corridor should be given to Metrolinx/GO and ARTM/Exo. We're starting to blur the line around suburban and intercity rail service anyway.

If VIA didn't exist, I think London, Peterborough and Kingston would all be getting GO rail service of some kind already.

While I to am frustrated with the lack of movement on HFR, I am not convinced that having Metrolinx/GO take over would improve things all that much. It is true that Metrolinx has made huge investments in GO, one has to realize that Metrolinx is responsible for regional Transportation (not just regional Transit) in the GTHA and thus are responsible for the highways and regional roads. Since traffic congestion is a major issue in Toronto, Metrolinx has a choice between widening roads and improving regional transit. As a result, it is easy to build a business case that investing in GO will be cheaper than widening roads, and any fiscally responsible government will pick an investment in GO.

Once you get outside the golden horseshoe, traffic congestion becomes a much less significant issue, so the cost/benefit analysis doesn't become as clear, even if Metrolinx's mandate was extended to include all of southern Ontario.

 

[crs1026]

Unfortuantely the assumption is wrong. Every VIA train that runs on CN/CP is a loss because they could have made more money running a freight train at that time.

CN only does so because of the past crown corporation connections to the federal government, getting subsidies from them, and a simple understanding from CP/CN that if they don't cooperate at a minimum with the federal governments mandate to have passenger rail services for its people, there would be consequences of such actions.

As to your first point... if CN/CP has a train that it needs to run, VIA takes second priority. VIA operates in whatever excess capacity that CN/CP can't fill. When capacity is limited, it's VIA's performance that suffers. So CN/CP don't lose money on VIA (although it's a never ending argument how much VIA ought to pay for all costs incurred - eg wear and tear)

As to the second - quite true that the freight railways show a minimum level of tolerance towards VIA because they know that outright rejection/antipathy might trigger a public reaction. VIA does have some minimal legal rights that give it fundamental access to privately owned rail lines, but with much deference to CN/CP's interests. Those legal rights are murky, and not necessarily enforced aggressively, so they may not enable everything we wish for.... but they do exist. It's a matter of balancing interests appropriately.

- Paul

 

[kEiThZ]

While I to am frustrated with the lack of movement on HFR, I am not convinced that having Metrolinx/GO take over would improve things all that much. It is true that Metrolinx has made huge investments in GO, one has to realize that Metrolinx is responsible for regional Transportation (not just regional Transit) in the GTHA and thus are responsible for the highways and regional roads. Since traffic congestion is a major issue in Toronto, Metrolinx has a choice between widening roads and improving regional transit. As a result, it is easy to build a business case that investing in GO will be cheaper than widening roads, and any fiscally responsible government will pick an investment in GO.

Once you get outside the golden horseshoe, traffic congestion becomes a much less significant issue, so the cost/benefit analysis doesn't become as clear, even if Metrolinx's mandate was extended to include all of southern Ontario.

The same logic could be applied to most of the Corridor inside Ontario. Toronto-London is 6 lane minimum the whole way and still getting jammed up. We're at 6 lane minimum till Coburg and probably going to 6 lane till Belleville, if not Kingston by the end of the decade. So there's absolutely a strong argument for the province to start incorporating rail development. Going from Coburg to the Quebec border was estimated at $2.5-3 billion in 2018.

If VIA is going to take another decade just building Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal, and a decade after that getting to Windsor, there are real costs to the province. Queen's Park should be asking if they can do it better.