VIA Rail

[JamesKoole]

We are offering our customers in Western Canada an additional choice in regions where intercity transportation is more limited as a result of this pandemic.

Likely there isn't a lot of demand for Toronto to northern Ontario or Winnipeg (especially via train) while it is reasonable to use the train between cities west of Winnipeg. It's also clear they don't want this to be a "tourist" train for the time being. No Park Car service, likely no access to a Skyline and you are confined to your room or seat except for limited dining car service via reservations.

 

[crs1026]

^ just out of curiosity why would it only go to Winnipeg? I assume there's some sort of operational reason? More double tracking in that stretch?

Winnipeg is where the On board crews are based, so it’s quite practical to run one direction and not the other.

One has to think that the COVID rates in Ontario and Quebec are a dissuading factor, but also it’s winter, and the potential business thru the Rockies is probably better than the business across Northern Ontario.

Much as I’m glad to see it running again, and bringing a few people back to work, one wonders about the travel logistics of arriving in either Winnipeg or Vancouver, given local health regulations etc.

- Paul

 

[Urban Sky]

I'm afraid I won't be able to reply in more detail (and share my spreadsheet) before the weekend, but just two comments:

However, based on further thought and our discussions since then, I no longer think that that is the most resilient strategy. In order to keep the door open for incremental improvements in the future, I now think that it is best to dispropotionately focus investments on the "better" segments of the existing ROW, since those are the most likely to stick around in the future. It is much easier to "upgrade" an alignment while there is negligible train service, whereas building a totally new alignment is equally easy whether we do it now or later.

It's not that difficult to make a pre-selection as to which segments might fall in which category ("potentially upgradable to HSR" and "not upgradable") when looking at the map I had posted:

What I am already finding reassuring is simply the added confidence that one can bank the heavier curves to get 65-70mph. I had a fairly conservative view of what's possible. If speed restrictions over the roughest sections can be kept at that level, there is no need to try to squeeze 110 out of as much of the route.... one only needs to run at 85-90 in the gentler curves to get to an average speed of 75 mph. Looking forward to more on this.

You can see the limitations imposed by the curves (and the influence of superelevation in mitigating them) in the distance-speed diagrams for 5, 8 and 10 inches, respectively:

Source: own modelling with geographical data measured with Google Earth

As you can see, with 10 inches of superelevation, there remain very few extended segments where the average speed over 10 miles (i.e. the green line) is lower than the 76.4 mph (i.e. the red line) required to beat 3:15 hours.

You can cross-reference with the map above or the following table to better approximate where the slow and where the fast segments are:

 

[micheal_can]

I wonder if this could spur the future of Western Canada improvements. They already have scheduled trains that only go between Edmonton-Vancouver. Maybe this is the beginning of Winnipeg-Vancouver and then also eventually have the full Toronto-Vancouver.

 

[roger1818]

They likely won't ssay, but am guessing it would be because anyone east would need to self isolate if going into MB.

Or at least you won't hear since you ignore the person on this forum who might be able to answer the question. The fact that he liked your post ought to say something.

 

[Urban Sky]

Or at least you won't hear since you ignore the person on this forum who might be able to answer the question. The fact that he liked your post ought to say something.

There are of course many more variables in the equation, but I don’t believe it would be reasonable to expect service on Winnipeg-Toronto (or Montreal-Halifax) to resume while Manitoba (or New Brunswick) still require travellers arriving from places like Toronto and Montreal to self-isolate themselves upon arrival...

 

[micheal_can]

Or at least you won't hear since you ignore the person on this forum who might be able to answer the question. The fact that he liked your post ought to say something.

I don't pay much attention to the likes. Again, not going to start drama; just not worth it.

 

[roger1818]

I wonder if this could spur the future of Western Canada improvements. They already have scheduled trains that only go between Edmonton-Vancouver. Maybe this is the beginning of Winnipeg-Vancouver and then also eventually have the full Toronto-Vancouver.

Since, as you said, they have scheduled trains that only go between Edmonton-Vancouver (by reducing the number of trains between Toronto-Vancouver) it is theoretically possible that VIA might (after COVID) have 1 train a week between Edmonton-Vancouver, 1 train a week between Winnipeg-Vancouver, and 1 train a week between Toronto-Vancouver. If this is an improvement in your eyes, .

 

[micheal_can]

Since, as you said, they have scheduled trains that only go between Edmonton-Vancouver (by reducing the number of trains between Toronto-Vancouver) it is theoretically possible that VIA might (after COVID) have 1 train a week between Edmonton-Vancouver, 1 train a week between Winnipeg-Vancouver, and 1 train a week between Toronto-Vancouver. If this is an improvement in your eyes, .

That is not exactly what I meant. Think of it like the Corridor. There is no thru train between Windsor-Quebec City. You must transfer at least once.

So, maybe they retain the frequency, but actually split them up. So, if it were 3 trains a week between Vancouver-Toronto each way, there still woudl be 3 trains, but you now have a forced transfer in Edmonton and Winnipeg. That could allow better on time performance, and it could allow more service added to the sections that are busier; kind of how there is already the extra Vancouver-Edmonton train.

 

[roger1818]

That is not exactly what I meant. Think of it like the Corridor. There is no thru train between Windsor-Quebec City. You must transfer at least once.

So, maybe they retain the frequency, but actually split them up. So, if it were 3 trains a week between Vancouver-Toronto each way, there still woudl be 3 trains, but you now have a forced transfer in Edmonton and Winnipeg. That could allow better on time performance, and it could allow more service added to the sections that are busier; kind of how there is already the extra Vancouver-Edmonton train.

As I said on SSP:

As for having the Canadian in 3 sections, it would likely help with reliability, but given that (in normal times) the vast majority of people using it are tourists, doing this could hurt business. If you force them to get off the train and take a hotel, many would use that as incentive to terminate their trip there and fly home from Edmonton when they otherwise would have taken the train all the way to Toronto.

 

[micheal_can]

As I said on SSP:

... would that mean that Via might have to finally start doing something to appeal to regular travelers, not just train tourists?

 

[Urban Sky]

I wonder if this could spur the future of Western Canada improvements. They already have scheduled trains that only go between Edmonton-Vancouver. Maybe this is the beginning of Winnipeg-Vancouver and then also eventually have the full Toronto-Vancouver.

• The first frequency will resume west of Winnipeg as of December 11, but will remain suspended east of Winnipeg, due to the current CoVid situation.
• The second frequency is currently suspended due to the CoVid situation.
• The summer-only third frequency was suspended in 2019 and 2020 east of Edmonton due to ongoing infrastructure works and didn't operate at all in 2020 due to the CoVid situation.

Therefore, any trains operating between Vancouver and Edmonton or Winnipeg (rather than all the way to Toronto) are still part of a Vancouver-Toronto service, which just happens to be temporarily suspended on the eastern part of the route...

@AlvinofDiaspar, can we move this post and the discussion about how service on the Canadian could be reorganized post-CoVid (see list of posts below) into a separate thread (suggested title: “Future of passenger rail services in Western and Atlantic Canada”), so that we can keep that discussion separate from those discussions which are more centered on the Quebec-Windsor Corridor or VIA's current operations?

#7,605
#7,609
#7,610
#7,611
#7,612

I believe that such a new thread could also absorb some of the off-topic discussions from the “Ontario Northland and the end of the Northlander” thread, as the discussion which was re-started here pertains less the operators of individual services than it does aim at crafting an entirely new vision for passenger rail outside of the Quebec-Windsor Corridor - a laudable effort which deserves its own dedicated thread...

 

[Urban Sky]

New schedules in effect since October 27

Now that the PDF schedules have finally been released, I can provide a quick update on the newest timetables in the Corridor, which took effect this Tuesday (27th) and see the withdrawal of trains #22, #29 and #633, thus reducing the frequencies offered on the Quebec-Montreal-Ottawa (QMO) route from 3 to 2 (i.e. back to where they were before September 1):

• Quebec-Montreal (and v.v.)
  • leaving QBEC at 08:00 (#35), 13:00 (#37) and 17:45 (#29)
  • leaving MTRL at 08:56 (#22), 12:45 (#24) and 18:25 (#28)
• Montreal-Ottawa (and v.v.)
  • leaving MTRL at 09:00 (#633), 12:04 (#35) and 16:50 (#37)
  • leaving OTTW at 06:30 (#22), 10:15 (#24) and 16:10 (#28)
• Montreal-Toronto (and v.v.)
  • leaving MTRL at 08:55 (#63), 11:05* (#65), 13:28 (#67) and 17:10 (#69)
  • leaving TRTO at 08:32 (#62), 11:32 (#64), 15:17* (#66) and 17:02 (#68)
• Ottawa-Toronto (and v.v.)
  • leaving OTTW at 08:40 (#643), 11:50 (#53), 15:23* (#55) and 18:25 (#59)
  • leaving TRTO at 08:32 (#52), 12:17 (#42), 15:32* (#46) and 18:47 (#48)
• Toronto-Windsor (and v.v.)
  • leaving TRTO at 08:40 (#71) and 17:30 (#75)
  • leaving WDON at 09:00 (#72) and 17:45 (#78)
• Toronto-Sarnia (and v.v.)
  • leaving TRTO at 17:40 (#84)
  • leaving SARN at 06:10 (#87)

Note: all trains operate daily, except trains marked with an asterisk (*), which will operate on Mondays, Fridays and Sundays only.

I think that this service reduction in the middle of the second wave is rather modest compared to the dark days of April and May (when frequencies across the entire Corridor were down to only one single train per day and direction), but the big news last week was that the Canadian is going to resume service west of Winnipeg as of December 11:

October 20, 2020
VIA RAIL ANNOUNCES A GRADUAL SERVICE RESUMPTION IN WESTERN CANADA


MONTRÉAL, October 20, 2020 – VIA Rail Canada (VIA Rail) announces the gradual return to service in Western Canada by providing intercity transportation exclusively between Winnipeg and Vancouver as of Friday, December 11, 2020.

After a very thorough evaluation of its health and safety protocols, including physical distancing measures, enhanced air ventilation systems, and improved measures for passenger access and the protection of its employees, one weekly round-trip will thus be offered on this portion of the Canadian route.
"The health and safety of passengers and our employees remains our top priority. We are offering our customers in Western Canada an additional choice in regions where intercity transportation is more limited as a result of this pandemic," said Cynthia Garneau, President and CEO.

VIA Rail deploys a strict protocol of sanitary measures on board its trains, in its stations, maintenance centres and call centres to deal with the pandemic and minimize the spread of COVID-19. Our teams continue to apply the latest health and safety guidelines and are evaluating VIA Rail’s overall service offering in the context of the pandemic. Thus, in the event of major changes related to the health crisis, VIA Rail will revise its service offering in line with the latest developments.

VIA Rail remains committed to a full recovery of its long-distance service for Western Canada, the Canadian, providing service between Toronto-Vancouver, and will continue to work closely with public health authorities as well as the federal and provincial governments to ensure this occurs as quickly as possible.

In summary:

• Train 2 will leave Vancouver on Fridays and arrive Winnipeg on Sundays
• Train 1 will leave Winnipeg on Mondays and arrive Vancouver on Thursdays

The service will include Sleeper accommodations, but with quite a few modifications:

IMPORTANT NOTICE - SERVICE MODIFICATIONS
VIA Rail announces the gradual return to service in Western Canada by providing intercity transportation exclusively between Winnipeg and Vancouver as of Friday, December 11, 2020.
After a very thorough evaluation of our health and safety protocols, including physical distancing measures, enhanced air ventilation systems, and improved measures for passenger access and the protection of our employees, one weekly round-trip will be offered on this portion of The Canadian route. More details on our schedule.

Changes to the service and the experience on board:

• Both Sleeper Plus and Economy class will be offered, but Prestige class will not be available.
• Passengers will be required to remain in their cabin and assigned seat.
• Passengers will be required to wear their mask at all times in stations and on board the trains, except when in an enclosed space such as a cabin or shower facility, or temporarily when they are eating or drinking (passengers are required to put it back on immediately afterwards).
• The Dining car will be open to Sleeper Plus passengers for breakfast and dinner. A reservation system will be in place to allow and control access. Lunch will be provided in-cabin only and will have to be eaten in cabins. The menu and bar service have been modified.
• A new at-seat cart food service will be offered in Economy class. The menu and bar service have been modified.
• Unfortunately, the Park car and Skyline car (lounge/dome cars) will not be accessible to any passengers.
• Activities and entertainment (including music) have been cancelled.
• Sleeper Plus class passengers will have access to the common showers by reserving a time slot. Showers will be sanitized after each use.

Please note that in the event of major changes related to the COVID-19 pandemic, VIA Rail will revise its service offering (including dining options) in line with the latest developments.
Ticket prices will reflect the service offering. Also, passengers with existing reservations on The Canadian will be contacted shortly by phone and email.
See the complete list of our health and safety measures.

I probably shouldn't be surprised that a European Rail Timetable is over 50 years out of date when it comes to Canadian station names. They probably still have the address as 2 Rideau Street. It is interesting that they make a better schedule for the TOM corridor than VIA rail does though. They put both the Montreal-Toronto and Ottawa-Toronto on a single page, where as VIA puts them on separate pages, requiring you to flip between two schedules when looking for a train along the lakeshore.

Well, here you go:

 

[crs1026]

^This past while I have been paying more attention to VIA’s Moving Maps page, mostly to check on timekeeping on the Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto lines. What has struck me is just how much recovery time there is in the current schedules. One frequently sees trains that fall down by 15-20 minutes but recover to schedule within a couple of stops.... at least until they hit Liverpool and fall in line behind GO trains.
My impression is that since the COVID reductions, VIA’s timekeeping for those few remaining trains has improved. Hopefully data will emerge to speak to this.
There is as much freight activity running on the line as ever, so the improved timekeeping may not be the result of fewer pax-freight conflicts, but rather the reduction in conflicts between VIA trains (that are weaving around the freights, of course).
It will be interesting to watch as more VIA trains hopefully return to see if the added trains lead to congestion and slower trip times.
It speaks to just how much of the capacity on the CN line is attributable to passenger service. If HFR proceeds, and those trains shift permanently to a new route, one has to assume that CN will take some track out of service, as CP has finally done on the Winchester Sub.

- Paul

 

[MisterF]

^This past while I have been paying more attention to VIA’s Moving Maps page, mostly to check on timekeeping on the Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto lines. What has struck me is just how much recovery time there is in the current schedules. One frequently sees trains that fall down by 15-20 minutes but recover to schedule within a couple of stops.... at least until they hit Liverpool and fall in line behind GO trains.
My impression is that since the COVID reductions, VIA’s timekeeping for those few remaining trains has improved. Hopefully data will emerge to speak to this.
There is as much freight activity running on the line as ever, so the improved timekeeping may not be the result of fewer pax-freight conflicts, but rather the reduction in conflicts between VIA trains (that are weaving around the freights, of course).
It will be interesting to watch as more VIA trains hopefully return to see if the added trains lead to congestion and slower trip times.
It speaks to just how much of the capacity on the CN line is attributable to passenger service. If HFR proceeds, and those trains shift permanently to a new route, one has to assume that CN will take some track out of service, as CP has finally done on the Winchester Sub.

- Paul

Except that there will still be Via trains on the Lakeshore/St. Lawrence route, just with different service patterns.