VIA Rail

[Allandale25]

youre prob right on that one... the last long via train that I took was the ocean so by default it popped in my mind. but then again if it was coming from the west wouldnt it be popping in from the lakeshore West?

If you ever want to see which train is in service you can always see this website. It doesn't track deadheading though.

 

[cplchanb]

If you ever want to see which train is in service you can always see this website. It doesn't track deadheading though.

just took a quick skim through the tracker....cant believe how many trains are significantly late... Via and Amtrak ....avg is like 15-20min. only 10% of the trains are classified as on time...

 

[Urban Sky]

just took a quick skim through the tracker....cant believe how many trains are significantly late... Via and Amtrak ....avg is like 15-20min. only 10% of the trains are classified as on time...

Not sure what you are seeing, but this is my view:

 

[cplchanb]

just took a quick skim through the tracker....cant believe how many trains are significantly late... Via and Amtrak ....avg is like 15-20min.

Not sure what you are seeing, but this is my view:

Well its when I click on each train. most of them say its between 10-20 min late even. then again perhaps they couldve caught up and I was mainly looking at the corridor routes

 

[SaugeenJunction]

So it looks like the scope of VIA HFR has changed again. Over the past year and a bit, I've used an infographic on VIA's HFR webpage to track changes on the project. This infographic has had many different versions, and I've posted them all (including the most recent one). Some changes between the most recent infographic and the previous one are: overall cost up ($5.5 billion total, $1.5 billion for fleet, 4 billion for infrastructure, another $2 billion to electrify - uncertain if electrification will initially get funded), Quebec City is now officially recognized as a part of the project, ridership is 9.9 million per year using the new benchmark of 2030, construction time is down to 4 years, trip times are now promised to be reduced by 1/4 rather than 1/3.

(Most recent version directly below)

I don't recall suggesting that no engineers had worked on it. Particularly, as I was noting that the work must have been done before the current 5 contracts.

However, it's more than a hunch or Google Maps measurements. Just some simple back of the envelope calculations. 2.5 hours from Toronto Union station to Ottawa Station station just don't make sense. Not at 110 mph for the $2.5 billion of rail upgrades they are talking about (the rest of the $ are for rolling stock).

For comparison, look at the 1995 Quebec-Ontario report. They reported an express Ottawa-Toronto time of =2.2 hours, but that was at 125 mph. Okay, sounds comparable you say. But from just Montreal to Toronto this was to cost $5.4 billion in in 1993 $. Escalating this to 2017$ simply using the consumer price index is $8.3 billion - and probably a lot more with a construction price index.

And that was without trying to pretty much build an entirely new alignment from Peterborough to Smith Falls!

Do they? VIA's engineering department has always been more about rolling stock than rail. To a great extend, they've relied on consultants and CN/CP. In the early days, through the 1980s, they were slowly building something that could do that stuff - but after they were decimated by the Mulroney cuts in 1989 or so, a lot of that went by the wayside.

Who at VIA has these skills now? Is there even a Director of Engineering any more - I don't know. Google tells me that there is a "Director of Capital Projects. But again they have s a mechanical/rolling stock background. I don't know ... but I'd assume they are relying on consultants. But which ones?

In some aspects probably. In others, not necessarily. If something doesn't pass the sniff test, then I wouldn't assume that it's fine.

I doubt this is related to a bluff.

I just want to know what engineering is behind this. There must be a report. Presumably it's FOIable.

I'd assume they are non-stop expresses. In fact, the Toronto-Montreal time being faster than the Toronto-Ottawa and Ottawa-Montreal times pretty much guarantees that.

And it's certainly NOT impossible to build this technically. But for only $2.5 billion. Gosh, I wouldn't be surprised if they blow $1 billion just getting from Union to Pickering Airport.

And then remember the old rail corridor was 1 track. The 1995 study called for 2 tracks. And even if they do try getting away with 1, they'll have to build some substantial sidings to pass at speed. And I can't imagine they wouldn't have to double track the approaches to Toronto. How much is that viaduct over the Don Valley going to cost?
View attachment 114785

Between the existing topography mapping of Ontario, and the original plans for the railway, there's enough info to plan a route. They wouldn't have to survey properly until they are getting ready for the design.

The only thing that has me worried is what FCP did before the last election where they just went off Google Maps. Sincerely hoping that VIA has a higher fidelity on their ROM estimate.

So to reference my post from a while back (top) VIA originally said that HFR would cut the trip time by 1/3, but then changed it to a reduction of 1/4.

One would assume that this change was due to a more in depth analysis of the routing, and realizing that a cut of 1/3 wasn't possible on the Peterborough route.

Also to note, most news articles that discussed how much time HFR would cut (for example Toronto-Ottawa being cut to 2:30) were most likley using the 1/3 reduction stat not the more recent 1/4 reduction stat, such as this one: https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/ne...ttps://www.theglobeandmail.com&service=mobile

 

[Allandale25]

So I heard somewhere (I forget where) that last summer VIA had surveryers and engineers working along the Havelock sub for prep work for HFR. Would make sense if they were gonna submit it to Transport Canada (they have) for consideration.

I remember reading that as well. I tried to do a search for VIA Rail and surveyors and haven't found much but did see this from a County of Hastings October 2016 Planning and Development Committee meeting (apologies if it's been posted already):

"Communications Petitions & Delegations:

(a) Jacques Fauteux, Director of Government and Community Relations, VIA Rail - re: proposal to build a dedicated passenger train railway from Toronto to Montreal Jacques Fauteux, Director of Government and Community Relations, VIA Rail, addressed the Committee regarding the expansion plans being considered by VIA Rail that include a high frequency Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto train with the corridor passing through parts of Hastings County. Mr. Fauteux spoke to the consulting that they have undertaken with the various municipalities that may be affected by the construction of the new rail line. He explained that VIA Rail hopes to present a formal proposal to the government by the end of the year. Mr. Fauteux further advised that it is their intention to have the expansion considered as part of the 2017 budget."

 

[dowlingm]

One thing to bear in mind is that the Peterborough alignment does not necessarily mandate using the Don Branch approach. If sufficient capacity was built on the Stouffville line and the LSE junction, it passes close to the Peterborough line a couple of times, and if the connection was made near Unionville (407 median? Cut across open country north of Mount Joy GO?) it would bypass the issues around transiting past Agincourt yard. With the SRT removed, there might be room to add an express track to allow VIAs move around GOs to a limited extent.

Of course, the flip side of that is that it puts huge pressure on the inner LSE even with 4 tracks.

 

[nfitz]

An interesting thought. Though with the constraints on Lakeshore, the curve at Kennedy, and then the Stouffville line - I'd be tempted that if you go that far, to actually keep going over the Stouffville line, and come down the Barrie corridor if you could find a corridor north of Richmond Hill - that might actually be faster.

Alternatively, you could run into Summerhill station instead of Union.

 

[crs1026]

When you look at the bridges over the Don Valley east of Leaside, the incremental cost of the Don Branch is not huge. I can't believe CP would allow VIA to run a high frequency service over its existing tracks between Leaside and Agincourt. VIA would have to have its own bridges.....a very significant cost. I have to agree with the earlier comment that the Union to Pickering Airportish stretch will be $1B to build. And not quick. VIA claims deployment within 4 years, IIRC. It will take much longer if they go that way.

- Paul

 

[SaugeenJunction]

One thing to bear in mind is that the Peterborough alignment does not necessarily mandate using the Don Branch approach. If sufficient capacity was built on the Stouffville line and the LSE junction, it passes close to the Peterborough line a couple of times, and if the connection was made near Unionville (407 median? Cut across open country north of Mount Joy GO?) it would bypass the issues around transiting past Agincourt yard. With the SRT removed, there might be room to add an express track to allow VIAs move around GOs to a limited extent.

Of course, the flip side of that is that it puts huge pressure on the inner LSE even with 4 tracks.

An interesting thought. Though with the constraints on Lakeshore, the curve at Kennedy, and then the Stouffville line - I'd be tempted that if you go that far, to actually keep going over the Stouffville line, and come down the Barrie corridor if you could find a corridor north of Richmond Hill - that might actually be faster.

Alternatively, you could run into Summerhill station instead of Union.

When you look at the bridges over the Don Valley east of Leaside, the incremental cost of the Don Branch is not huge. I can't believe CP would allow VIA to run a high frequency service over its existing tracks between Leaside and Agincourt. VIA would have to have its own bridges.....a very significant cost. I have to agree with the earlier comment that the Union to Pickering Airportish stretch will be $1B to build. And not quick. VIA claims deployment within 4 years, IIRC. It will take much longer if they go that way.

- Paul

I know that you could technically use other options other than the Don Branch, but I think that presents a few issues. First, the GO Stouffville Line will be very much at capacity with GO RER running every 15 mins, and there isn't too much room for expansion for more than two tracks. Additionally, I'm unsure of how connecting the Havelock Sub to the Barrie corridor is possible. Also, yes I can't see CP really willing to let VIA run on their tracks, and also this would be contrary to the idea of a dedicated tracks project. The Mid-Toronto Sub has enough room for 4 tracks almost its entire length, minus some bridges as pointed out above. Yes, this part would be very expensive. I also couldn't see trains ending at Summerhill Station due to it being very disruptive to get to Union. I think Don Branch to Union it is!

 

[44 North]

And then remember the old rail corridor was 1 track. The 1995 study called for 2 tracks. And even if they do try getting away with 1, they'll have to build some substantial sidings to pass at speed. And I can't imagine they wouldn't have to double track the approaches to Toronto. How much is that viaduct over the Don Valley going to cost?


Between the existing topography mapping of Ontario, and the original plans for the railway, there's enough info to plan a route. They wouldn't have to survey properly until they are getting ready for the design.

Feel like the Half Mile Bridge could be done affordably. Just a teardown, rebuild as simple concrete. What I think could be much higher cost/complexity is the active CP bridge over ET Seton. It's shorter length, but is a web of angled steel beams that I guess will be duplicated when it's twinned. But yeah I only gave a cursory glance at the VIA proposal numbers, but they seem very low for massive task. Ditto for the ambitious speeds.

 

[steveintoronto]

Single track with passing loops works just fine. Germany, Japan, etc, etc even run close to high speed trains over single track sections, with fifteen minute intervals...*both ways*. It means state of the art signalling and control. Hourly schedules would be a breeze for daytime running. Freight could be run temporally at night.

Surely, Canada could learn how to do that? Perhaps not...

 

[crs1026]

Single track with passing loops works just fine. Germany, Japan, etc, etc even run close to high speed trains over single track sections, with fifteen minute intervals...*both ways*. It means state of the art signalling and control. Hourly schedules would be a breeze for daytime running. Freight could be run temporally at night.

Surely, Canada could learn how to do that? Perhaps not...

Can you cite which lines you are referring to? I'm quite curious at what might be "best in class" in this respect.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

Can you cite which lines you are referring to? I'm quite curious at what might be "best in class" in this respect.

- Paul

Yes, one is an ICE line from "Cologne?" (Might be Stuttgart) (I'll try and find the diagram drawn for me by an associate) that runs single track for about 100kms and in Japan, I'll find out which one, it was mentioned to me by the same person, he was riding it just recently. I can supply exact detail and reference given a day or so.

Meantime I'll see what I can Google. When the passing loops are used at stations, it works even more efficiently.

Edit to Add: Here's an example, although interval frequency isn't stated here:

SPAIN is planning to install only single track on most new sections of high-speed line in a bid to reconcile ambitious plans to extend the reach of the standard-gauge network with the budgetary restraints imposed by the economic crisis.

The Ministry of Public Works and Transport and the newly-created high-speed infrastructure manager Adif-AV have decided that several high-speed lines currently under construction will have single track installed despite having been designed and built for double track, including tunnels and bridges. Passing loops will ensure that the infrastructure can be used at capacity, if needed.

The plans will affect the Olmedo – Zamora section of the Madrid – Galicia high-speed line, which is expected to open in 2015. Single track will be installed on 70km of the 95km route, with only the Olmedo – Medina and Coreses – Zamora sections being double-track.

Furthermore, the new strategy will affect the lines connecting Valladolid with Leon and Burgos, which are currently under construction. Double track will be installed from Valladolid to Venta de Baños and Palencia, but roughly half of the 110km stretch from Palencia to Leon will be single track. The 75km-long Venta de Baños – Burgos section, which is expected to connect in the future with the Basque Y and France, will be almost entirely single-track (67km).[...]

http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...ngle-track-high-speed-lines-to-cut-costs.html

The German ICE example was stated previously in this string. "ICE single track" might show results if you use the string search feature (I'm not adept at it).

 

[cplchanb]

Yes, one is an ICE line from "Cologne?" (Might be Stuttgart) (I'll try and find the diagram drawn for me by an associate) that runs single track for about 100kms and in Japan, I'll find out which one, it was mentioned to me by the same person, he was riding it just recently. I can supply exact detail and reference given a day or so.

Meantime I'll see what I can Google. When the passing loops are used at stations, it works even more efficiently.

Edit to Add: Here's an example, although interval frequency isn't stated here:

http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...ngle-track-high-speed-lines-to-cut-costs.html

The German ICE example was stated previously in this string. "ICE single track" might show results if you use the string search feature (I'm not adept at it).

I can confirm that many of the Shinkansen stations in Japan have passing tracks in the center. Passing trains just zoom by while the stopping train gets rocked by the pseudo sonic boom. It can be done, they have 5 min headways at times as well