VIA Rail

[steveintoronto]

I think we're tired of hearing about Steve's high end machine. Keep it on topic, everyone.

No apologies for having a "quality" machine, but it is completely on-topic to discuss how those machines are catered for or not on VIA and GO trains.

VIA claim their next coach order tranche will include the ability to load on bikes like the Brightline example. For now, they can be carried on in a bag in the present renovated LRC coaches.

Brightline's way, and ostensibly what VIA's next tranche will emulate:

 

[SaugeenJunction]

On the VIA coming home from London and I did my usual interrogation of the staff on VIA HFR. This time, the lady working said she didn't have much news, other than that the Federal Government has been "very supportive". Could be nothing, but at least its positive!

 

[robmausser]

Bear in mind that UPX only has 18 of the Sharyos, they are mechanically problematic, they are high platform, and the assembly line is torn down. The most likely candidate to buy them if they become available is SMART, but there's *still* no definitive date for Metrolinx to electrify the line allowing them to be replaced.

Just in discussion on exactly this point with a friend, and he writes:
[Are you sure that those train sets can be boarded by passengers from platforms which are essentially at track level? Building high-level platforms is dramatically easier if the operator also owns the ROW, as is the case with the UP Express (via Metrolinx), but not with VIA (at least not for any of the corridors you've mentioned). Also, keep in mind that VIA cannot acquire any new rolling stock without the approval and funding from its shareholder and that buying up a fleet which has been designed for a completely different client, region and service is not automatically a smart move, even if you manage to secure a deep discount from the initial price.]

UPDATE: Nippon Sharyo lays off 100 more workers in Illinois | Trains ...
trn.trains.com › News › News Wire
Jan 23, 2017 - 30, 2017, if Nippon Sharyo is unable to deliver on the contract. ... in Japan, and has also produced equipment for Sonoma-Marin Area Rail Transit ... previous layoffs in 2015 and 2016 to the bilevel cars' mechanical problems.
SMART | Systemic Failure
https://systemicfailure.wordpress.com/tag/smart/
Dec 30, 2016 - SMART blames its staffing problems on the high-cost of living. ... Indiana, and on September 14 met with Cummins, carbuilder Nippon Sharyo ...
SMART isn't in operation yet, but already has major engine problems ...
https://systemicfailure.wordpress.com/.../smart-isnt-in-operation-yet-but-already-has-...
Oct 15, 2016 - Back in 2009, SMART came up with a bonehead plan to use ... and on September 14 met with Cummins, carbuilder Nippon Sharyo and SCOA.
SMART train is on hold till 2017 - PressReader
https://www.pressreader.com/usa/san-francisco-chronicle-late.../282007556914774
Oct 15, 2016 - SMART train is on hold till 2017. Problems delay North Bay rail ... The manufacturer, Nippon Sharyo of Japan, will begin replacing the engines ...Cummins working with two companies over faulty engine reports
www.therepublic.com/.../cummins_working_with_two_companies_over_faulty_engine_...
Oct 21, 2016 - Cummins is working with two of its customers over engine problems ... supplied for the Sonoma Marin Area Retail Transit District (SMART) in California. ... with Cummins officials, train car builder Nippon Sharyo and Sumitomo.

If VIA were to buy something to replace their already overhauled RDCs, it wouldn't be the Sharyo DMUs.

Edit to Add: Here's the lesson to be learned and for Transport Canada to get off their zorry azzes and do as the FRA is in the US, the very agency TC states they need to copy, until it comes to modernizing regulations: (The US is well behind the rest of the world, but well ahead of Canada)

SMART isn’t in operation yet, but already has major engine problems
October 15, 2016 by Drunk Engineer

Back in 2009, SMART came up with a bonehead plan to use custom-design rolling stock — a decision heavily criticized in this blog. And here we are six years later, and they are still struggling to get something working:

On September 7, 2016, SMART was notified by SCOA [Sumitomo Corporation of America] that the failure was due to an underlying design flaw in the engine’s crankshaft. Responding to this news, SMART’s Vehicle Maintenance Superintendent, supported by LTK vehicle engineers, travelled to the Cummins Engine facility in Seymour, Indiana, and on September 14 met with Cummins, carbuilder Nippon Sharyo and SCOA. At the meeting it was agreed that the engines would be rebuilt with a new crankshaft designed for the life of the engine, as soon as possible.

So now all the engines will need to be scrapped, and the train design re-tested. The SMART staff is now (very optimistically I think) saying the line won’t open until at least Spring 2017. The previous opening date was supposed to be the end 2016 (which had already been pushed back 2 years due to other issues).

Remember: the whole rationale for using custom FRA-compliant rolling stock was that it would take “too long” to get regulatory approval for off-the-shelf European DMUs.

https://systemicfailure.wordpress.c...on-yet-but-already-has-major-engine-problems/

Its been my understanding that the mechanical problems were due to crankshafts in the engines, and after replacement the mechanical problems have gone away.

Every new vehicle has teething issues, some worse than others.

 

[steveintoronto]

On the VIA coming home from London and I did my usual interrogation of the staff on VIA HFR. This time, the lady working said she didn't have much news, other than that the Federal Government has been "very supportive". Could be nothing, but at least its positive!

Desjardins-Siciliano, Garneau and Morneau are all holding their cards very close to their chests. If this were Queen's Park, there'd be a slew of announcements and press conferences to tell everyone how wonderful they are and what wonderful things are coming. The FedLibs are not perfect, but far more savvy in terms of realizing the stakes and how it can all be lost by saying just one wrong comment. It's my understanding that VIA staff are told little for fear of it leaking, so they are encouraged to remain positive, which is very good policy when so much is at stake.

I'm transfixed by Morneau's statements, as is the press, they can't get much out of him, not the least because any major change in Washington might necessitate altering the imminent budget. I remain positive, more so that I trust the names mentioned to handle this as well as can be. We'll know a lot more shortly.

Further to the "Brightline bike rack" above...I'd suggest VIA have a nominal charge to reserve space on theirs when the new rolling stock arrives. This discourages 'tanks' being brought on, which really won't work in the vertical rack as displayed, and encourages those with 'quality' machines to use the racks knowing that the adjacent space isn't being used by someone who doesn't care for their machine, and will damage yours as they jam it in or out. That kind of peace-of-mind is well worth paying a nominal booking fee for, and also knowing if there isn't space on a given train, there is on an earlier or later one. Plans could go awry otherwise. And of course, a policy not only allowing, but encouraging the locking of the machine in the rack should be instituted, if not tied into the reservation for the space, and a lock built into the racks with a dynamic combination supplied when reserving the space. In the event of a glitch preventing you from locking or unlocking it, the on-board staff would have an over-ride code they could use on examining your ticket.

Its been my understanding that the mechanical problems were due to crankshafts in the engines, and after replacement the mechanical problems have gone away.

Metrolinx declined doing that, save for the one that failed catastrophically, and claims to want to wait until next major overhaul to replace them all when their expected service life is spent.

I'd suggest at that time they up-rate to a more powerful engine to allow adding in a trailer coach to effectively increase the fleet without a reduction in ability to keep to the present timetable. I see a possibility to service Bramalea as well as the airport on the Weston Corridor long before it is electrified (an interesting theory that may happen one day), so with nine trailers added, it would effectively render 9 sets of 2 powered + one trailer consists, although one consist might still be needed as 'standby'...especially considering the ongoing problems with them. That may not be enough for fifteen minute service to Bramalea, but it would be better than every half hour considering that the present hourly service from Mount Pleasant would still be running during the day.

Since the Sharyo production line is no longer set-up, it might be worth looking at converting existing surplus coaches (like the single level ex-GO HS ones that ONR have surplus of, some with control cabs already extant, and able to be used for high platform use) for the job. Those Sharyos have already cost a bundle, and will never show a pay-back, so it's time to look for inexpensive solutions to expanding their utility.

Another, but abstract thought for trailers is to use what the single level GO coaches were based on: TTC subway cars, with altered bogies of course, for standard gauge track, surplus and rebuilt for the job at the North Bay ONR shops looking for exactly that kind of work. Or if VIA have more LRC coaches than they need to refurbish.

Perhaps Sharyo, being in desperate straights at this time, could slap out some trailers by setting up their jigs again...it's worth looking into, but to buy more powered Sharyos just doesn't appear to be possible.

Edit to Add: Fingers crossed, as this might have massive bearing on the Budget, and how that affects HFR and other VIA plans:

Google:
White House civil war breaks out over trade
‘Fiery meeting’ in Oval Office between economic nationalists and pro-trade moderates

Morneau et al won't reveal the details (including HFR funding and Investment Bank details) in the Budget, but this will definitely affect the *overall tone* of it.

It's just up at the Financial Times.

 

[dowlingm]

A low platform DMU would probably suit Vancouver Island better. Only one I know of is the Colorado Railcar version which was worse than the Nippons.

What the Vancouver Island service should have done is had a maintenance base about an hour or so outside Victoria, run in with commuters to Esquimalt and Victoria and then turned for a tourist run out and back such that the set would be back in Victoria for a post-5pm service back to base. How far the tourist run would get would depend on track quality, so if people further up island wanted to see the train out their way, they would have to lobby government to fund track speed increases.

As for the mention of EuroDMUs under new rules, I would think those new rules would only apply in signalled and maybe even PTCed track. Given how little has been spent, and how grudgingly that little has been spent, on Vancouver Island rail in the past it will be Budds and slow running and not even arriving in Victoria given the rail bridge is gone.

 

[robmausser]

That'd be alright. Doing milk runs to smaller communities and whatnot. I had this template already made so for fun I thought I'd try Via's colour scheme.

View attachment 101586

You should do it in the new colour scheme though

 

[steveintoronto]

Only one I know of is the Colorado Railcar version which was worse than the Nippons.

The North Am market for NorthAm built DMUs is pretty much dead. The Colorado Railcars died, were attempted to be resurrected, and died again, leaving a number of operators in the lurch. It was Sound Transit IIRC, that had orders for them, then considered the Sharyos, walked away from them as being too expensive, and went for some other option, possibly a Talgo product, I'll Google and edit later.

As for the mention of EuroDMUs under new rules, I would think those new rules would only apply in signalled and maybe even PTCed track.

Ironically the Nippon-Sharyo DMUs have the equipment for that, but it is never used.

 

[robmausser]

Bear in mind that UPX only has 18 of the Sharyos, they are mechanically problematic, they are high platform, and the assembly line is torn down. The most likely candidate to buy them if they become available is SMART, but there's *still* no definitive date for Metrolinx to electrify the line allowing them to be replaced.

So is the rest of the VIA fleet. They have stairs, which I am sure could be built into the DMU's

 

[crs1026]

I am trying to stay positive about the Langford-Victoria commuter idea, but it's not holding together.

The idea of a commuter train was first floated in connection with restoration of dayliner service over the full former VIA route. It made sense in that context, because the VIA train was an out in the morning-back in the afternoon affair catering to tourists, walkers, and cyclists. The commuter run added utilisation to the trainset, so had a fairly low marginal cost. One didn't have to sell a lot of fares to break even. Adding a turnback commuter run also made sense as it enabled an overnight layover somewhere other than in central Victoria, which again reduced cost; there would have likely have been a deadhead run anyways since the traditional roundhouse yard is no longer available.

Langford is not that distant from central Victoria. The 50 bus - which only runs every 15 minutes at rush hour, not a heavy ridership - makes it in 28 minutes. Langford auto commuters do encounter congestion on the Trans Canada Highway, but congestion in Victoria is not congestion in the GTA. Commuters will waste more time lining up for a latte in central Victoria than on their commute.

One has to note that Victoria is actually a collage of small villages with independent minded Councils and weak central government. If you have watched the water treatment saga, you know that Victoria's decisionmaking is equally disfunctional to Toronto. Perhaps the local mayors see the commuter train as a lever to get something moving on the full service restoration. If it works, great....I don't pay taxes out there. But I suspect it's just another study group that gets no traction.

If so, that's unfortunate. I would love to ride that train again.

- Paul

 

[Urban Sky]

So is the rest of the VIA fleet. They have stairs, which I am sure could be built into the DMU's

Just in case you want to take a second look at the door areas before making such assumptions:

Open doors in a LRC car (refer to last photo 4 posts back for a view with closed doors)

Source: VIA Rail website

UP Sharyo with open doors

Source: Global Air Rail website

UP Sharyo with closed doors

Source: "The Beachburg Sub" blog

 

[steveintoronto]

I am trying to stay positive about the Langford-Victoria commuter idea, but it's not holding together.

There's a fair amount of hits showing on Google News for this, and the most notable to strike me is this:
[...It’s unclear where the funding for the line would come from, but ( Transportation Minister Todd Stone) said federal partners were “intrigued” by the project and looked forward to reviewing the business case.]
http://vancouverisland.ctvnews.ca/p...uter-rail-service-in-capital-region-1.3317128

"Intrigued" can mean many things, but when I see pics of the state the track is in (it can be refurbished, but it might not meet TC regs now, at least not without severe conditions placed on it) I'm thinking it might be better to approach this not as a heavy rail option at all, but as light rail, and incorporated in BC, not federally.

With some tweaks, it might meet the much lower bar of BC's regs for diesel LRVs. And run by transit personnel, not unionized railway ones. VIA would be right out the picture for that, as would be RDCs.

Googling for "Victoria LRT" also shows a lot of hits! Province has already looked at this, and here's one of the best references with a quick Google:

• posted Apr 26, 2011 at 5:00 PM

Electric light-rail rapid transit is B.C. Transit's recommended choice for the future of moving people between Victoria and the West Shore.

Construction of a fully built light-rail system would cost about $950 million, including the right-of-way, track and electrical systems, stations and vehicles.

Total cost for the life of the system, including capital and operating expenses, is estimated at $1.2 billion.

Depending on if and how the price tag can be shared between the municipalities, the province and the federal government, Greater Victoria residential property owners could be required to pay an additional $130 to $265 for the new system each year. They currently pay $92.50 for transit, though that will increase to $120.50 starting May 15.

Business owners would face a sharper increase of between $1,300 and $2,650, depending on the funding formula. They currently pay $356 annually for transit, though that is also going to jump by $28.

Transit is currently covered by fares, the province, property taxes, fuel taxes and advertising. However, the transit company is not ruling out exploring other methods to offset project costs.

Transit officials say the two other regional transit options that were considered - bus rapid transit and maintaining the status quo - would also be expensive. Bus rapid transit start-up costs are estimated at $520 million, and $250 million would be needed to maintain the current transit system.

A new bus rapid transit system would be cheaper in the short term, say transit officials, but anticipate it would be at capacity after 10 to 15 years and require replacement with light rail.

B.C. Transit's recommendation, kept under tight wraps until Tuesday afternoon, is an important next step in bringing rapid transit to the traffic-burdened region. Last October key municipalities along the rapid-transit corridor endorsed the right-of-way route, including Victoria, Saanich, View Royal, Colwood and Langford.

There would be stations in downtown Victoria and at Uptown in Saanich. The electric train would run along a track next to the Trans-Canada Highway to the 6 Mile/Colwood interchange, along Island Highway in View Royal to Colwood, continue along Goldstream Avenue before reaching its final Station Avenue stop in Langford.

There is still a check list of things to do before B.C. Transit's rapid transit business case is completed.

To solicit community feedback, the plan will be presented in detail during two public open houses May 4 and 5.

The light-rail transit plan is expected to go before the B.C. Transit board of directors and the Victoria Regional Transit Commission in May. If approved, the business case would be submitted in June for the province's consideration.

http://www.vicnews.com/news/120745379.html

Deja vu! The benefit of this is that it could stone two birds with one kill. It could be part of a wider LRT system in Greater Victoria, and costs, maintenance and flexibility could be a lot more efficient.

 

[steveintoronto]

Just in case you want to take a second look at the door areas before making such assumptions:

Agreed. I was actually reviewing the drawings for the Sharyo, and quickly realized that the chassis/frame couldn't permit cutting away to put in steps like that, not to mention the door frames being altered if put where the present ones are, and then the entire monocoque strength of the car shell being compromised doing it. It would be far less work to just convert the Sharyos to electric propulsion and keep them.

A far better choice would be to increase engine power when the faulty prime motors are removed at their next major service, and add in a trailer car, built either from a redundant LRC coach, or one of the H series TTC subway cars, or the surplus stock of old HS series GO single deck cars that Ontario Northland are renovating for the Polar Express and put high level doors in the sides where the Sharyos now have them. It's virtually the same frame and body as the TTC H stock, a number of which are still used for work trains, some in amazingly good shape, trailer and tractor ones.

[...]The upgrade comes at a cost of $17 million dollars and is being funded by the Ontario government.

"The Polar Bear coaches will be redesigned to better meet the needs of the community. This will provide continued work for the refurbishment shop and send a clear signal that the ONTC is open for business," the Minister responsible, Michael Gravelle, said in a release. [...]
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbu...ar-bear-express-train-gets-facelift-1.2839330

Lots more info online, including clear pictures of how the cars are uprated with heavy three phase electric cable and plugs on the ends of each car, and fully multiplex wired.

Now instead of refurbishing the ex-GO coaches, with end of car stairwells for low platforms as shown, much of the template can be used for high platform loading with ex- HS subway cars (H1-H4) of which the TTC still has enough to add nine trailers to the present 18 powered Sharyos to make 2 powered + 1 trailer sandwiched triple car consists. Nine of them, even with one set on standby, it will allow enough to include frequent service up to Bramalea as well as the airport, and those would be triple coach trains. (Again, with increased prime motor power when they're replaced at end of life service, so the power to weight ratio stays as it is now).

Keep the costs in the province, within Metrolinx's sphere of influence (even if ONR is run by a different ministry). Someday, in a distant time and place, the Weston Corridor might be electrified...

Of course, the bogie wheelsets would have to be altered to standard gauge if ex TTC H series are used. The GO single deck cars were produced on the same jigs as the subway cars, and a number of them are sitting unused and as yet un-refurbished on a siding by the factory shown above in North Bay.

 

[steveintoronto]

Even though Morneau has the details of the Budget locked up tight, some around him in high finance are sketching out what's likely for the Investment Bank:

The big money bets on a building boom
Jacqueline Nelson AND James Bradshaw

The Globe and Mail
Published Thursday, Mar. 09, 2017 6:00PM EST
[...]
Moving into 2017, much of the focus will be on transit systems, such as new LRT lines, regional rail lines and bridges. These projects are larger in scope and value than the social-infrastructure projects, such as hospitals, and they take more time to complete. “Where we see the pipeline in 2017 and 2018 is a lot fewer projects, but a lot larger projects,” said Sekhar Angepat, co-head of infrastructure finance at RBC Dominion Securities.

In terms of new financings, 2016 was comparatively light for new projects compared to 2015, when large projects such as the Champlain Bridge in Montreal and Toronto’s Eglinton Crosstown LRT came to market. The latter was a project valued at about $5-billion with a significant financing component to it. [...]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...oney-bets-on-a-building-boom/article34245297/

 

[SaugeenJunction]

Heading back to London from Oakville tonight on VIA (11 car train tonight). Bought a beer and chattted up the very friendly VIA worker and got some insightful info.

• VIA plans to scrap most of their HEP and unrefurbished LRC fleet once the new fleet is in service
• Trains 650, 651, 82, 83 during Christmas time sometimes feature the Glen Fraser club car, where free drinks and food are distributed as these trains are massively popular. Evidently VIA Prez YDS does this as a goodwill gesture (want to ride this)
• RDC service from Sarnia unlikely, but evidently VIA might use them for some extra Stratford-Toronto runs (I'd love to see RDCs at Union)
• He was unsure of the status of the HFR and new fleet projects

These points may not be right but are nonetheless interesting!

 

[steveintoronto]

VIA plans to scrap most of their HEP and unrefurbished LRC fleet once the new fleet is in service

A lot of the HEP stock will possibly/probably go to collectors and tour operators, but the LRC coaches left redundant might be perfect for refurbishing into trailer coaches for re-engined UPX Nippon-Sharyos as described a few posts back. Two Nippon-Sharyos with more powerful engines at the time for them to be re-engined and an ex-LRC sandwiched in between with added high platform doors cut into the sides would increase the three-car consists possible by a third (9 instead of 6) and allow frequent service to Bramalea inter-lined with the airport service to Union long before the Weston Corridor is electrified. And the cost of doing this stays no only within Ontario, but indirectly within Metrolinx's sphere. A lot of GO rolling stock is already refurbished by ONR.

Pic above shows complete overhaul of ex-GO single level H series coaches for Polar Bear Express

http://www.ontarionorthland.ca/en/refurbishment