Urban Sky
Senior Member
I would assume soon after CP abandoned the line in 1986, as Tom Box suggests here:
VIA giving up M&O Sub
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VIA Rail
- Thread starter ehlow
- Start date
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VIA finally has a new app. They sent out emails about it today
reaperexpress
Senior Member
The north mainline is definitely promising for medium-distance travel, but based on the penny-pinching rhetoric coming from Metrolinx's latest GO Expansion announcements it's safe to assume they will spend just enough on the line between Kitchener and Bramalea to accommodate the planned GO service, and not a penny more. There definitely won't be spare capacity available for Via.
Ideally Metrolinx and Via should be collaborating to create an effective passenger rail system in southern Ontario that improves both regional rail (GO) and intercity rail (Via), rather than ignoring improvements to the latter. But in this particular case I think it does make sense for GO to fully take the Toronto-Kitchener-London corridor over. Toronto-Kitchener express trains can be extended to London without any impact on capacity on the CN mainline between Bramalea and Georgetown, or the single-tracked GO line between Georgetown and Kitchener. Via could affordably expand capacity on the south mainline by adding second platforms at stations, enabling them to use the double track that already exists rather than being bottlenecked onto the single platforms at Ingersoll, Woodstock and Brantford stations. That would enable them to add a couple trains per day, with service via Brantford to both Sarnia and Windsor.
You've already seen the content of my article on the case for GO Transit taking an increased role in intercity rail in Ontario, but I'll link it here again for others' reference:
https://ontariotrafficman.wordpress.com/2024/05/26/the-case-for-regional-express-trains-in-ontario/
crs1026
Superstar
It's hard to argue with this concept, and clearly the solution is some sort of federal-provincial collaboration (as if those ever work in this country) rather than two parallel agencies. But I would not exclude VIA from the mix on this line, for a couple of reasons
- offering one-seat rides to Sarnia and Windsor, even on a limited scale, is more marketable than even a well managed London transfer, so worth the effort
- I suspect VIA has retained the contractual right to operate more trains, and their rights may even supersede ML's
- The Brantford route is fundamentally not passenger friendly, and upgrading service on that route will always be an uphill battle, whereas adding capacity to the Kitchener route is more easily done.
I share your skepticism about just how much capacity ML may have negotiated and funded.... ie not enough. Can't totally blame them, because if Ottawa has not participated or provided funding, they are not obligated to step in, nor should they wait for some perfect collaboration that never arrives. But ML has been operating from a more limited vision.....the interest in 2WAD came after the initial planning and in some respects is an add-on. We may not be done improving the Guelph Sub, it sure would be nice to have gotten it right the first time.
- Paul
reaperexpress
Senior Member
I agree that the north mainline has better bones for passenger rail, I think it's just a question of timelines. In the 10-15 year timeframe during the contracted scope for the current GO Expansion project it seems most palatable for Via to leave the north mainline to GO, with GO adding all day express service to London as an add-on to the GO expansion project (which would have no impact on CN contracts since the assumption is that Metrolinx would have purchased the London-Kitchener railway).
In the longer term if we can finally get some movement on an HFR West type project for Via, there could be another round of upgrades to the north mainline such as:
- add additional track Bramalea to Georgetown
- complete the double track Georgetown to London, with possibly some short single track bridges in tricky spots west of Kitchener (i.e. St Marys)
The reason I'm only proposing modest upgrades on the Brantford line is indeed that in the longer term if Via can secure major investment in SW Ontario it would be good to direct that to the north mainline. The modest upgrades via Brantford would just be to give CN a bone to allow two daily Sarnia trains to run via the south mainline to Toronto, increasing the service on that line from 5/day to 7/day.
As I've mentioned before I don't think we can let Metrolinx off the hook for thinking like a selfish for-profit corporation. Its mandate should be to improve long distance transit in Ontario. Via Rail currently provides some very useful intercity rail services entirely within Ontario without any significant financial support from the Province. The least the Province could do is to design their infrastructure such that Via trains are able to maintain the same average speeds that they already achieved before GO expansion. If they increase GO local frequencies without providing adequate passing tracks, Via's speed will be decimated.
Sauga89
New Member
Someone on the GO construction projects thread last week was asking if GO could run a Kitchener to Guelph shuttle now that the Breslau track work was done. Maybe if GO bought the northern route, it could run a few London to Guelph local service trains (terminating in Guelph) in addition to extending some Kitchener express trains to London, if the expansion work doesn't provide enough capacity for all the trains it would want between Georgetown and Bramalea. That would leave London to Toronto primarily for VIA on either the northern or southern route.
Urban Sky
Senior Member
That is the problem you are trying to fix with trains from Kitchener and London terminating in Guelph and why wouldn’t you run these as shuttle buses feeding trains so that the latter may capitalize on their actual strength, which is to bring large passenger loads reasonably fast and reliable into downtown Toronto?
Bojaxs
Active Member
Speaking of improving VIA service in SWO. Would a snow squall cause delays with VIA service?
crs1026
Superstar
There have been studies (and maybe an EA, I forget) for a Kitchener centric GO service. I don't disagree with the vision, but it's a question of how long before that is justified and top of the to-do list. My sense is maybe in 15 years....after another round of track building... whereas there is an overdue need for the regional service that has London (or beyond) and Toronto as the end points. This is a better use of whatever (limited) track capacity ML will have available in the near future.
And, based on population density and current traffic levels, I would argue for regional train investment towards Niagara and Cobourg before I would tackle Baden- Guelph. But it would be interesting to see hard numbers around that, I'm going by the seat of my pants on that. For now, it's enough to get more stopping service beyond Bramalea to Mount Pleasant .
- Paul
And, based on population density and current traffic levels, I would argue for regional train investment towards Niagara and Cobourg before I would tackle Baden- Guelph. But it would be interesting to see hard numbers around that, I'm going by the seat of my pants on that. For now, it's enough to get more stopping service beyond Bramalea to Mount Pleasant .
- Paul
Sauga89
New Member
Well, because a train is faster than a shuttle bus, and I was thinking there's probably some demand for fast transit between London and Kitchener. Also, the 100 km between the two I thought wasn't well suited to VIA, which is designed more for long-distance than daily commutes. I guess I was thinking that every person who takes VIA from London (or Sarnia, Windsor, etc.) and gets off at Kitchener takes a seat from someone going the full distance downtown. So, a local GO train would help with that, right? Maybe I'm wrong though.
(EDIT: Ideally, of course there would be enough capacity for everyone between Georgetown and Bramalea.)
Urban Sky
Senior Member
We are unfortunately many years away from the tracks between Kitchener and London being travel time competitive again against what could be achieved with a bus, let alone offering rail services across SWO which could
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crs1026
Superstar
Sure, in the short term. Drifting snow and snow accumulations that overwhelm switch heaters - or clog switches that aren't heated - these need to be dug out by hand. Snow plays havoc with electrical traction motors, causing locomotives to depower or die altogether. Bad roads mean maintainers can't reach trains to fix them, and fixing trains in blizzard conditions and wind takes longer. Delayed or stalled freight trains then block passenger routes.
Once the squall passes and the wind dies, and the snow develops a hard crust, it's much easier to correct problems, even if it's still cold.
- Paul
crs1026
Superstar
What is so utterly frustrating is knowing that actually, a track campaign on that line is both quick and simple. Sure, there may be many individual points that need design and heavy construction, but tie replacement, upgrading tie plates, undercutting and new ballast, and welding rail joints and upgrading rail anchors, could probably be done the whole way London- Kitchener in a single season from spring thaw to first frost.
I would want to add crossing upgrades, addition of new sidings, and heavy maintenance to bridges and culverts.... but that is all work that could be done in about two years if the sense of urgency and funding were made available. It might not achieve HFR, but the same effort to upgrade Ottawa to Smiths Falls only took a short time. I can't think of anywhere that curves need to be eased or tracks shifted.....just fix the damn line similar to Ottawa-Brockville and yes it will compete with the roads.
- Paul
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roger1818
Senior Member
I would assume soon after CP abandoned the line in 1986, as Tom Box suggests here:
VIA giving up M&O Sub
Yes, but it had been abandoned, which is why I specified that it was "VIA's first main line purchase." An abandoned ROW is not main line.
Urban Sky
Senior Member
Agreed, but we are a bit in an chicken-and-egg stand-off, where we won’t have upgrades without more frequencies and more frequencies without upgrades. Only an investnent program like the $160 million Ontario apparently promised to Metrolinx could fix this impasse:
Agreed, this purchase of land was simply to protect a rail corridor whoch might have been usefull at some point in the future, whereas all other purchases were of rail corridors which were important to existing operations…