VIA Rail

[MisterF]

Is it much more direct?

The old 1950s CN timetable says that Toronto to London via Brantford was 119.9 miles while the route through Kitchener was 121.4 miles.

A little more direct maybe. Much more? No. Though perhaps if they restored the Brantford by-pass that CN abandoned back in 1938 ...

Still, there's a lot less curves between Toronto and Kitchener than there is between Toronto and Paris.

I did a couple quickie measurements on Google Maps from London to Union. The line through Kitchener is ~194 km while the one through Brantford is ~185. The new alignment from Kitchener to London that would be part of a new HSR line would bring the length via Kitchener down to about 183 km. Bypassing Brantford would take some distance off too, but that wouldn't make any sense for a conventional speed line.

 

[steveintoronto]

Mind you that this was after WWI (not WWII), thus after the war where the only "crime" of us Germans was to have fought on the "wrong" side. Instead, they named the city after a character, which even the BBC describes as follows:

Oh, what an irony...

That was exactly why I linked it:

June 28, 1916: Exactly 346 people voted for Berlin to be renamed Kitchener
KITCHENER — No drums rolled. All who waited outside city hall stayed silent, digesting the news. Berlin had picked a new city name. Few turned out to vote and nobody cheered the result.

You know the winning name: Kitchener. Residents chose it 100 years ago today in 1916, in a second referendum after a bitter name-changing debate that exhausted everyone and made the city the butt of jokes across the nation.

So yes, there was little enthusiasm when it was over. More like a long, slow exhale. On Sept. 1, 1916, Berlin officially became Kitchener.[...]

 

[nfitz]

Mind you that this was after WWI (not WWII), thus after the war where the only "crime" of us Germans was to have fought on the "wrong" side.

June 1916 was after WWI?

June 1916, was also when Kitchener was killed, the referendum was about 3 weeks after. His war crimes weren't well known at the time.

 

[JohnnyRenton]

If the statement about Moncton-Halifax service restoration is credible, that's a huge accomplishment.

One can't help but start to imagine service to Saint John again, and/or up to Campbellton. VIA already pays a huge share of the cost of the Campbellton line, because it's virtually devoid of freight traffic. The cost of adding more trains is likely not much more than the above the rail costs.

I wonder what equipment would be used.

- Paul

I am really excited to know all the details of these two Maritime projects. This, along with HFR, is going to be very telling as to what direction VIA will be headed down, at least for the short to medium term. I don't expect anything big and radical, just something simple and straightforward. But the details and strategy for bringing these two services online will be super interesting to dig into.

Bit of a sidenote, anyone else wonder if Calgary-Edmonton service may be on VIA's short/medium term to-do list? I know there are a number of challenges that would make implementing this service less than straightforward. But, it seems like the kind of opportunity that VIA may be ready to seize now (at least getting a plan underway so they could start whatever engineering works they would need to do within a few years).

 

[ssiguy2]

When I stated that the London route should be via Aldershot I {admittedly I should have been more clear} I was not suggesting there should be a stop at Aldershot but rather just used it as the reference of the current route.

The route could employ the 125British diesel rail trains which, as the name implies, has a cruising speed of 125 miles/hour or 200/kph. By building some bypass sections to avoid the terminal slowdowns due to freight they could get from Union to London in 75 minutes. The 175 kph speed max set by Transport Canada without grade separations is not a law but a regulation of current law which means the Transport Minister can change it with a stroke of a pen.

They could continue the Lon/Kit/Tor route for those needing to get to Pearson but for people in SWO, Pearson is not as big a draw as Torontonians would have you believe. Most Windsorites travel via Detroit for long distance and both London and Windsor airports have major carriers that take anyone anywhere in NA or sun destinations which is the vast bulk of travel. Kitchener has no real airport so Pearson is a far bigger draw for KWC than for Lon/Wind.

 

[steveintoronto]

The route could employ the 125British diesel rail trains which, as the name implies, has a cruising speed of 125 miles/hour or 200/kph.

Huh? Those trains are heavy, ancient, and expensive to operate. And they're being retired, even after mid-life refurbishment.

If you're going to make wild projections as to what to use, at least pick something modern, efficient, and able to accelerate and handle curves at a high speed, like Pendolinos. In the event, none meet FRA regs (which unfortunately, TC still adheres to, even as the US offers waivers) and so the VIA request for proposals requires that, proven technology, now running, and hybrid.

The Type 43 is none of those save for being proven and some still running.

 

[TOareaFan]

They could continue the Lon/Kit/Tor route for those needing to get to Pearson but for people in SWO, Pearson is not as big a draw as Torontonians would have you believe. Most Windsorites travel via Detroit for long distance and both London and Windsor airports have major carriers that take anyone anywhere in NA or sun destinations which is the vast bulk of travel. Kitchener has no real airport so Pearson is a far bigger draw for KWC than for Lon/Wind.

Adminittedly, I have never been to London's airport...but your posting made me look. I think the bolded part is a bit of a stretch.

Here is a complete list of the destinations from their web page.

Air Canada
Destinations: Direct to Toronto and Ottawa daily.

Air Transat
Destinations: Seasonal direct to Cayo Santa Maria, Cuba; Punta Cana, Dominican Republic; and Cancun, Mexico

Celebrity Cruises
Destinations: Eastern and Western Caribbean Cruises from Palm Beach

Sunwing
Destinations: Seasonal Direct flights to Holguin & Varadero, Cuba and Montego Bay, Jamaica

West Jet
Destinations: WestJet direct to Calgary daily and seasonal to Winnipeg, Vancouver WestJet Encore daily to Toronto WestJet Vacations seasonal to Orlando, Florida

 

[nfitz]

Huh? Those trains are heavy, ancient, and expensive to operate. And they're being retired, even after mid-life refurbishment.

Additionally, the plans to replace them with diesel equipment was cancelled, as they came to the conclusion it was cheaper to electrify and buy electric trains instead. The new fleet is a combination of electric and dual-mode EMUs.

 

[crs1026]

The 175 kph speed max set by Transport Canada without grade separations is not a law but a regulation of current law which means the Transport Minister can change it with a stroke of a pen.

A bit of a nitpick, but I'd challenge this statement. The 175 kph limit was set by TC after a fair bit of study and analysis. If one were to change it, one would first need further study and analysis (and probably public input) which would have to demonstrate that a) a higher limit is sufficiently safe and b) the thinking which led to the earlier 175 limit was unduly conservative. Without this paper trail, the first car that got hit by a 125 mph train would lead to a lawsuit, and TC would be accused of having allowed an unsafe practice. The paper trail is their diligence defense. No Minister is going to sign a new regulation affecting rail safety without that protection.

The issues with the Aldershot route are - a) the Dundas Hill. CN uses this route for freight and would insist on retaining a very favourable operating access for its freight trains.

And b) electrification of the entire line would be off the table - forever. It's much the same issue that is forcing the bypass instead of sharing the Halton Sub from Bramalea to Georgetown.

If there is a route that can be incrementally improved at least cost, with least impact on freight, it's the Kitchener route. The case for VIA to acquire and utilise this route is the same as for acquiring the Havelock east of Toronto.... ie minimal interference from freight.. One can speculate on what new lines might be built outside the GTA, but it's the only way to build the first 60 km's of HFR, HSR, or whatever west of Toronto Union within the likely cost envelope.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

Kitchener has no real airport ...

which is a bit of a problem, as those daily WestJet flights from KW to Calgary have to take off and land on the Conestoga Expressway, dodging traffic.

 

[steveintoronto]

And b) electrification of the entire line would be off the table - forever.

In fact, I think that vies for the largest reason, as VIA rightly wants to be at least 'electric ready and able', thus their request stating "hybrid".

What boggles me is that Guy has made this claim for the Type 43 before. The HSTs were only able to perform well on relatively straight routes, and did poorly on others. My older brother used to work them, they don't have a great reputation for reliability and finesse, and the locos ride rough. They're like a freight on the tracks. If quoting European models, there's many much finer examples to offer, and Hitachi are now selling into that market too, and winning bids.

(K-W airport) is a bit of a problem, as those daily WestJet flights from KW to Calgary have to take off and land on the Conestoga Expressway, dodging traffic.

Although a limited runway option, it is an "international airport" and right on the edge of the the northern tier line. Serving that airport could mean carrying passengers to either Pearson or K-W on that line.

If Guy want to promote British, then here's the closest to what would/could be used, regs permitting:

British Rail Class 800
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
British Rail Class 800 Super Express

Hitachi Class 800 undergoing dynamic testing at Old Dalby

Class 800 interior as seen at the opening of the Hitachi Rail Vehicle Manufacturing Facility.
In service

• 2015 (testing)
• 2017 (passenger service)

Manufacturer Hitachi
Built at

• Hitachi Kasado (pre-production)
• Hitachi Newton Aycliffe (production)

Family name A-Train
Replaced

• InterCity 125
• InterCity 225

Number under construction

• 34 x 9-car sets
• 46 x 5-car sets

Formation 5-car: DPTS-MS-MS-MC-DPTF[1]
Operator(s)

• Great Western Railway
• Virgin Trains East Coast

Line(s) served

• East Coast Main Line (all destinations)
• Great Western Main Line

(destinations to Bristol and South Wales)
Specifications
Car body construction Aluminium
Car length 26 metres (85 ft 4 in)
Width 2.7 metres (8 ft 10 in)
Maximum speed

• 125 mph (200 km/h)
• (140 mph, 225 km/h with minor modifications)
• (100 mph, 160 km/h with diesel-power only[2])

Weight 300 tonnes (5-car),
540 tonnes (9-car)[3]
Axle load 15 tonnes[3] (13 tonnes without diesel engine)
Traction system 120 kW (160 hp) per axle[1]
Prime mover(s) MTU 12V 1600 R80L
Engine type V12 diesel
Cylinder count 12
Power output 560 kW (750 hp) per engine[1]
Acceleration 0.70m/s/s[1]
Deceleration 1.00m/s/s service, 1.20m/s/s emergency[1]
Electric system(s) 25 kV 50 Hz AC overhead lines
Current collection method Pantograph
Safety system(s) AWS, TPWS, ETCS, ATP
Track gauge 1,435 mm (4 ft 81⁄2 in) standard gauge
Notes
1:^ The engines are fully rated at 700 kW (940 hp), but have been de-rated on these units.[4]
The Class 800 Super Express is a type of electro-diesel train to be used in the United Kingdom, based on the Hitachi A-train design. They are to be built by Hitachi from 2015. The first units will be delivered for the Great Western Main Line (GWML), beginning service there in July 2017 and on the East Coast Main Line (ECML) from 2018. These trains will be built at Hitachi's purpose-built facility at Newton Aycliffe, alongside the related electric multiple unit Class 801.[5]

Contents

• 1 Background and design
• 2 Fleet details
• 3 See also
• 4 References
• 5 External links

Background and design


First class interior
Main article: Intercity Express Programme
As part of the UK Government's Intercity Express Programme, the Class 800 units are to be partial replacements for the aging InterCity 125 trains which currently operate services on the Great Western Main Line and the East Coast Main Line. The Class 800 units will be electro-diesel multiple units, able to draw power from electrified overhead lines where available and power themselves via underfloor diesel generators outside the electrified network. The train specification requires that this changeover can occur at line speed. The trains can be converted to electric-only operation by removal of the diesel engines. [...]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_800

 

[steveintoronto]

From the Wiki article on the parent model, the "A-Train":

[...]
In March 2015 First Great Western (GWR) agreed to acquire 29 bi-mode Hitachi AT300 (Class 802) subject to government approval expected in June 2015. The trains, which will consist of 22x 5-car and 7x 9-car units, will be a replacement for the remaining HST fleet. They will make use of the full power output to cope with gradients in Devon and Cornwall (enhanced diesel rating) and will also be built with larger fuel tanks. The trains will use overhead electric power between Paddington and Newbury, which is as far as electrification will reach on the Westbury route.[11]

The AT100 is targeted at high-density urban trains, whilst the AT200 is designed for suburban, commuter and regional routes.[12] Abellio ScotRail has selected the Hitachi AT200 for new trains when it is operating the Scotrail franchise.[...]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitachi_A-train

This train is engineered with exceptional crash resistance. TC would do well to allow VIA to accept bids from Hitachi....and perhaps even assemble models here from pre-assemblies in Japan, as the UK is doing.

 

[Garuda]

which is a bit of a problem, as those daily WestJet flights from KW to Calgary have to take off and land on the Conestoga Expressway, dodging traffic.

Pft, I've practised this many a times in GTA V (basically a murder simulator) and landing a plane in traffic is a non issue. Sure, I've been "wasted" a few times but still totally worth it.

I am really excited to know all the details of these two Maritime projects. This, along with HFR, is going to be very telling as to what direction VIA will be headed down, at least for the short to medium term. I don't expect anything big and radical, just something simple and straightforward. But the details and strategy for bringing these two services online will be super interesting to dig into.

It's important to keep in mind that the population of the Maritimes is around 1.5 million along VIA's Ocean route. That's not a lot compared to the GTA, Vancouver, or Montreal but with the right infrastructure (like rail) and population growth the region could become a mini Quebec-Windsor.

I concur that VIA should buy up as many sections of the line (Campbellton) to repair the line for higher speeds. Right now, the Ocean arrives in Halifax at around 6pm. If they could get that to noon (and Moncton at 8am) it would make the overnight Ocean trip much more appealing to travellers. Go to sleep in Quebec City and wake up in Moncton. More better than driving or spending money for another night at the hotel.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

For reference, the southern route to London (via Aldershot) is very busy. Trains are usually at least 4 cars long, and on busy days like before or after a holiday, they can become massive (for VIA). I've seen 12 cars on one before. Besides Toronto Union, lots of people board/get off in Oakville. No matter where HFR Phase 2/HSR goes, there still needs to be frequent-ish and reliable service on the southern line.

 

[kEiThZ]

For reference, the southern route to London (via Aldershot) is very busy. Trains are usually at least 4 cars long, and on busy days like before or after a holiday, they can become massive (for VIA). I've seen 12 cars on one before. Besides Toronto Union, lots of people board/get off in Oakville. No matter where HFR Phase 2/HSR goes, there still needs to be frequent-ish and reliable service on the southern line.

Perfect for GO.