VIA Rail

[TerryJohnson]

Interesting items in this release:
1. EllisDon Capital is out and that consortium is looking for a new partner.
2. The RFP is for 200 km/h and "faster" options, so HSR-200 or HSR~300, no sign of HFR. Because the cost and construction time hockey-stick to grade separate every crossing occurs below 200 km/h, the incremental BCR of higher speeds above 200 is almost certainly favourable, but both would be unlikely to improve upon the BCR of the original proposal.
3. The government mentions cost control in the same paragraph as bragging about blowing $400M on the procurement process. Meanwhile Treasury Board is probably turning the screws on VIA as part of their effort to find $15B in cuts, so this is going to look even worse if there's a service reduction.

 

[cplchanb]

RFP news for HFR.

https://www.railfans.ca/news/minister-of-transport-announces-the-launch-of-the-request-for-proposals-for-the-high-frequency-rail-project

curious why it would take a year to go from RFQ to RFP when the 3 selected bidders are essentially resubmitted updated versions of their current bid package.

 

[smallspy]

Given that the 5-7car LRC sets include 1 HEP coach, they are limited to 95 mph. The 4-car trains are presumably the ones hauled by the less-powerful F40PH locomotives, in which case they are also limited to 95 mph.


So the only trains in the current rotation which can reach the 100 mph speed limit are the 2 Venture sets and the 2 Renaissance sets.

Not that any of that really matters from a scheduling or train cycling point.

What will matter, however, is when a good deal more of the Venture sets enter service. That will greatly increase the ability to add trains, as it will eliminate the requirement to build time into the schedules to turn the trains at the ends of their runs. At the very least, it will greatly improve on-time performance as delays are far less likely to cascade from one trip to the next as each trainset cycles through its day.

Their greatly improved acceleration and braking performance vis-a-vis the current trains won't hurt, either.

Dan

 

[micheal_can]

Not that any of that really matters from a scheduling or train cycling point.

What will matter, however, is when a good deal more of the Venture sets enter service. That will greatly increase the ability to add trains, as it will eliminate the requirement to build time into the schedules to turn the trains at the ends of their runs. At the very least, it will greatly improve on-time performance as delays are far less likely to cascade from one trip to the next as each trainset cycles through its day.

Their greatly improved acceleration and braking performance vis-a-vis the current trains won't hurt, either.

Dan

My hope is that the worst of the rolling stock is taken out of service first. So, those guard trains should be the ones in worst shape. Once that happens,and enough of them are sitting in either Toronto or Montreal, my hope is they start getting donated/sold for static displays before being scrapped.

We know the F40s are heading to the long distance service. Are any of the existing Corridor cars suitable for any of the long distance routes? Could any be used to augment any of the long distance routes till a new contract of that service has been delivered? In other words,get every last mile we can till we get a new fleet across Canada.

curious why it would take a year to go from RFQ to RFP when the 3 selected bidders are essentially resubmitted updated versions of their current bid package.

I thought they were the same thing. It annoys me that this is being drawn out so much, or is this normal for government contracts and this is the first I noticed it?

 

[Urban Sky]

My hope is that the worst of the rolling stock is taken out of service first. So, those guard trains should be the ones in worst shape.

„Guard trains“ are not a distinct part of VIA‘s Corridor fleet and thus not in (an even) worse shape than the rest of the Corridor fleet, as apart from the Renaissance cars (which are only used on QMO services), the Corridor fleet is deployed interchangeably across the entire Corridor…

Once that happens,and enough of them are sitting in either Toronto or Montreal, my hope is they start getting donated/sold for static displays before being scrapped.

You can expect the VIA History Society and the Canadian Railway Museum in Sainte-Constante (or anyone else interested) to receive as many cars and locomotives as they are willing to preserve.

We know the F40s are heading to the long distance service. Are any of the existing Corridor cars suitable for any of the long distance routes? Could any be used to augment any of the long distance routes till a new contract of that service has been delivered? In other words,get every last mile we can till we get a new fleet across Canada.

The LRC and Renaissance cars can’t be used beyond their Corridor deployment, so only the HEP-I and HEP-II cars to get redeployed, but these are only coaches (which in my observation is the car type for which VIA‘s non-Corridor fleet feels the least shortages) and in their current Corridor configuration (seats!) they are not well suited for non-Corridor deployment…

I thought they were the same thing. It annoys me that this is being drawn out so much, or is this normal for government contracts and this is the first I noticed it?

It is completely normal that if you want to ensure high-quality proposals, you first have to increase the mathematical chances of each individual proponent of actually winning the contract - and that means: pre-screening the applicants…

 

[CapitalSeven]

The press release for the RFP requires trains that can reach a maximum speed of 200 KPH. Without seeing a more detailed document we can't make any assumptions about how much of the route has to be compliant with that speed. Many parts of proposed route can't easily be brought to that standard. Earlier requirements specified the maximum travel times for the major city pairs. Have those changed?

 

[crs1026]

The LRC and Renaissance cars can’t be used beyond their Corridor deployment, so only the HEP-I and HEP-II cars to get redeployed, but these are only coaches (which in my observation is the car type for which VIA‘s non-Corridor fleet feels the least shortages) and in their current Corridor configuration (seats!) they are not well suited for non-Corridor deployment…

A certain number of HEP-1 coaches (which retain their long distance interior configuration) have been traditionally used in Corridor service. I suppose that some of these might stick around in the Long-Distance service, although if they aren't needed presently one would expect VIA to cull some - no point in having a bigger fleet than is needed.

The concern for me is whether some beancounting Treasury Board bureaucrat will be insisting that VIA stick to the rigid seat-for seat rationale of the new equipment funding, leading to culling of the corridor fleet faster than it is actually worn out. VIA should have the latitude to retain whatever number of old cars, to boost its overall business capacity, at least until the HfR project is fully launched... at which time there will likely be a further equipment order. I doubt many LRC coaches can be retained, but the HEP fleet may have some use for a few years yet.

It is completely normal that if you want to ensure high-quality proposals, you first have to increase the mathematical chances of each individual proponent of actually winning the contract - and that means: pre-screening the applicants…

A common reason for the failure of many mega projects is inadequate pre planning. Getting this one right is time well spent IMhO.

One can lament that the years of study between VIA, Transport Canada, and the old JPO didn't generate a solid spec, but leveraging the imagination and expertise of the three proponents by giving them free rein to offer creative proposals is not a bad idea, I just wish it had happened back around 2017. Water over the bridge, I'm afraid.

- Paul

 

[Urban Sky]

A certain number of HEP-1 coaches (which retain their long distance interior configuration) have been traditionally used in Corridor service. I suppose that some of these might stick around in the Long-Distance service, although if they aren't needed presently one would expect VIA to cull some - no point in having a bigger fleet than is needed.

I assume the HEP-I cars will get cascaded to non-Corridor deployment, but HEP-IIs are somewhat a bad match…

The concern for me is whether some beancounting Treasury Board bureaucrat will be insisting that VIA stick to the rigid seat-for seat rationale of the new equipment funding, leading to culling of the corridor fleet faster than it is actually worn out. VIA should have the latitude to retain whatever number of old cars, to boost its overall business capacity, at least until the HfR project is fully launched... at which time there will likely be a further equipment order.

How do you want to supplement the Siemens fleet with HEP2 business cars? Tow them at the end of the train? Run dedicated Business Class-only trains?

I doubt many LRC coaches can be retained, but the HEP fleet may have some use for a few years yet.

The LRC cars are in urgent and desperate need of getting retired. VIA won‘t be allowed to transport a single passenger on them once the 32nd trainset has been accepted (and there might not be any left of them by then)…

A major reason for the failure of many mega projects is inadequate pre planning. Getting this one right is time well spent IMhO.

The cardinal error in the saga of Berlin-Brandenburg Airport was that the contract was broken down into small bits, so that it would become digestible for local construction companies, with the governments themselves as future owners directing (and of course never admitting that they were hopelessly overwhelmed with this task!) the construction of this megaproject. In the end, the airport openend 9 years late and with tripled construction costs…

One can lament that the years of study between VIA, Transport Canada, and the old JPO didn't generate a solid spec, but leveraging the imagination and expertise of the three proponents by giving them free rein to offer creative proposals is not a bad idea, I just wish it had happened back around 2017. Water over the bridge, I'm afraid.

- Paul

It indeed is very frustrating that it took the Sesselpupser at TC almost a decade to get serious about HFR, but I haven’t lost my hope that the entire procurement will result in something we can fully embrace rather than a botched megaproject (think: REM) which could have and should have been so much better…

 

[crs1026]

How do you want to supplement the Siemens fleet with HEP2 business cars? Tow them at the end of the train? Run dedicated Business Class-only trains?

I'm showing my age, but in my youth I rode heavyweight CN sleepers in corridor service, used as coaches at peak holiday service.

The legendary 17-car VIA trains that one see pictures of, dating from the 78-83 period happened because VIA inherited a secondary coach fleet that was fully depreciated but still usable. Weekday trains were much shorter, but on weekends when the demand was there, the almost-ready-for scrap Canadian Flyers were added. (Back a while, bus companies also augmented peak demand by adding charter-operator buses and operators to their schedule).

Obviously, VIA will not be switching HEP cars in and out of Venture trainsets.... but if they kept an idle trainset or two of HEP, they could double up Venture trainsets on a key train on Thanksgiving Friday, and run the HEP to replace whatever run they stole from.

The economics and maintenance costs may not allow much of this.... but even a little might add revenue. More importantly, it's a distinction between VIA running as a government department under a rigid rationed funding model, versus running as a business enterprise in a competitive marketplace, with a mandate to aggressively gain market share. One person's senior's moment is another person's virtue signal, perhaps.

- Paul

 

[micheal_can]

„Guard trains“ are not a distinct part of VIA‘s Corridor fleet and thus not in (an even) worse shape than the rest of the Corridor fleet, as apart from the Renaissance cars (which are only used on QMO services), the Corridor fleet is deployed interchangeably across the entire Corridor…

I understood that. The point was that as they start getting a surplus of cars, they rotate out the worst ones of the fleet first and utilize them as spares or even as a way to add more times in the schedule,if possible.

The LRC and Renaissance cars can’t be used beyond their Corridor deployment, so only the HEP-I and HEP-II cars to get redeployed, but these are only coaches (which in my observation is the car type for which VIA‘s non-Corridor fleet feels the least shortages) and in their current Corridor configuration (seats!) they are not well suited for non-Corridor deployment…

Could they be redeployed for shorter services, such as any of the city pair routes I had mentioned? Ina way, it would allow for Via to expand with their existing fleet until the Long Dtistance Fleet Replacement contract happens?

It is completely normal that if you want to ensure high-quality proposals, you first have to increase the mathematical chances of each individual proponent of actually winning the contract - and that means: pre-screening the applicants…

So, likely just my perception in the past.

 

[lenaitch]

Could they be redeployed for shorter services, such as any of the city pair routes I had mentioned? Ina way, it would allow for Via to expand with their existing fleet until the Long Dtistance Fleet Replacement contract happens?

Unless the government (VIA's funder) approves any expanded service routes, keeping rolling stock 'in hopes of' would seem to be a waste of resources. Just parking them in a field somewhere so they can rot into the ground strikes me a fairly pointless. The only service I can think of off the top of my head that would need equipment that is not currently used is Gaspe, which was suspended, not cancelled.

 

[Urban Sky]

I understood that. The point was that as they start getting a surplus of cars, they rotate out the worst ones of the fleet first and utilize them as spares or even as a way to add more times in the schedule,if possible.



Could they be redeployed for shorter services, such as any of the city pair routes I had mentioned? Ina way, it would allow for Via to expand with their existing fleet until the Long Dtistance Fleet Replacement contract happens?

Repeat slowly after me: Only F40s and HEP cars may find a second life after the fleet renewal on the Corridor obviates their current deployment. No future use awaits the LRC or Renaissance cars…

 

[micheal_can]

Unless the government (VIA's funder) approves any expanded service routes, keeping rolling stock 'in hopes of' would seem to be a waste of resources. Just parking them in a field somewhere so they can rot into the ground strikes me a fairly pointless. The only service I can think of off the top of my head that would need equipment that is not currently used is Gaspe, which was suspended, not cancelled.

So, in short, it could, but the government would need to announce the new routes.

...hmmm, how could the government look good in places they don't have MPs...

 

[micheal_can]

It would be interesting if VIA trialed a low-cost service similar to Ouigo using train sets something along the lines of:

P42(cab car)-8 HEP2 Coachs-F40

The startup capital costs would be low, and if it fails, the trains are probably getting scrapped either way.

Where would you see this be used?

 

[littlewill1166]

Where would you see this be used?

Toronto-Ottawa, or Toronto-Montreal non-stop trains so you can reduce onboard staff costs and have staff at stations operate the doors.