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VIA Rail
- Thread starter ehlow
- Start date
SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
You don't mention it if you aren't seriously considering it. Nice catch, and again, I'm sure this gets funded.
steveintoronto
Superstar
At this time of 'radio silence'...we're all straining to make sense of what may or may not happen. It might be months until we hear something concrete, but I'm reasonably optimistic, if for no other reason than the huge amount of capital looking for a reasonable investment. Emphasis on *reasonable*...because for all the hype and blather as to national identity and pride, and the opposite, as to how far behind railroading is in this nation in many respects, it must be remembered how *rational* the investment environment is in this nation. Canada is stable, well governed, full of untapped opportunity and an excellent place to invest.
We're going to have to look past the litany of complaints as to how "these guys are just out to make a buck"...well duh! Much of the money they're working with is ours to begin with!
I have many bones to pick with the present federal regime, albeit I think it's a huge improvement over the last one, and the provincial liberals are hardly worth the name, don't want to get started on that one, but on this file, on attracting investment to rebuild Cdn rail infrastructure (and other), Trudeau *appears* to be getting this right. We'll see.
Meantime, I think this info is being purposely dripped and dribbled. We didn't just catch D-S saying off the cuff remarks. That was very carefully stage managed. He didn't say enough to be on the hook, but enough to give a hint of what could/should be.
Ditto Morneau. The "CP" reference was awkward, but perhaps intentionally so. He's playing a game for more than just Joes like us.
If this plays out as best it can, I think *all routes suggested* will be on the table! But be prepared for the term "User pay basis" to be a greater part of the lingo than ever before. If Investors can tap the massive inefficiencies and turn them into profit, credit to them. The taxpayer *if this is done right* will also benefit.
Must run, nuff said for now.
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SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
Since it seems like there will be a fair amount of capital flowing to infrastructure, here is an idea that just popped into my head. Would VIA Rail, if successful in the Toronto-Quebec City corridor, try to implement a form of High Frequency Rail between Calgary-Red Deer-Edmonton? VIA Rail (besides the Canadian) does not have much of a presence in Alberta and it could be a good investment for the feds who won a few seats in Calgary and Edmonton. I am not sure how the ridership would be, but it would create an important link between the cities. A fast Vancouver-Calgary train would be nice, but I don't think we will see that until 2100. Also I see a VIA HFR proposal between Toronto and Windsor happening wayyyyy before my ideas above.
MisterF
Senior Member
A train between Calgary and Edmonton seems like such a no brainer. But starting up a service where none exists is a complicated task. Probably a long term goal for Via, but I wouldn't expect anything to happen anytime soon. Does an abandoned or underused rail line existing between the two cities?
A daily service to Banff and Lake Louise would be a lot like one to Collingwood and also seems like a no brainer. But I'm a skier so maybe I'm biased.
kEiThZ
Superstar
They wouldn't be talking this much if they hadn't done substantial work on it.
My prediction is that they this will be one of the first infrastructure bank projects. And i think they're out shopping for private sector/outside capital (probably Caisse, Teachers, etc.) to jump on board with the infrastructure plan.
DS first said they could deliver by 2019. Now I see 2023 everywhere. Either they have hit technical snags (say like a route change), or they're waiting for the infrastructure bank to get up and running before financing kicks in and this is all preliminary work.
I just hope it's under way before the next election.
My prediction is that they this will be one of the first infrastructure bank projects. And i think they're out shopping for private sector/outside capital (probably Caisse, Teachers, etc.) to jump on board with the infrastructure plan.
DS first said they could deliver by 2019. Now I see 2023 everywhere. Either they have hit technical snags (say like a route change), or they're waiting for the infrastructure bank to get up and running before financing kicks in and this is all preliminary work.
I just hope it's under way before the next election.
steveintoronto
Superstar
I agree. It's not that they *have* talked about it, it's that they *continue* to talk about it. Something is simmering on the stove, doubtless, albeit there's always the possibility that what's being touted to the public is to test for reaction, both with the public and investors.
What boggles me is the relatively small cost of this project (Approx $5B) compared to the Trillions in available capital. That money is looking to go somewhere, it's not working if it's sitting in a vault, euphemistically speaking.
I think that's due to the Caisse passing on VIA's overtures for their own project, which appears to have run into a lot of headwinds. At first it looked bold and dynamic, it now looks highly disruptive to all the present transit operators and plans in Montreal. Not too sure on the latest, there's been little press on it save for concerns.
In all fairness, Caisse might have come under the mmmmm...'coercion' of the Montreal civic persuasion. I reserve further comment on that until having details to post.
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crs1026
Superstar
Calgary-Edmonton makes great sense - It would make greater sense with feeder route, but I doubt these would have as good economics. With Alberta's economy suffering, it's the perfect infrastructure stimulus project for the province right now. I'd argue for building it now, borrowing if need be, rather than waiting for an upturn in the economy when itmight be more "affordable"
I am suspicious of claims that these projects can be done in such short timeframes, however. The design takes time. Starting with insufficient engineering, and/or pushing construction to meet harsh timelines, is a recipe for failure. Projects need to be driven, yes - but not in a way that creates risk.
- Paul
I am suspicious of claims that these projects can be done in such short timeframes, however. The design takes time. Starting with insufficient engineering, and/or pushing construction to meet harsh timelines, is a recipe for failure. Projects need to be driven, yes - but not in a way that creates risk.
- Paul
steveintoronto
Superstar
HFR between Toronto/Ottawa/Montreal is justifiable with the present demand, albeit not by much, but does have enough inertia to bull ahead in some form or other. Edmonton/Calgary doesn't, and it has been studied: (Even Ontario beyond Toronto/Ottawa/Montreal corridor is questionable per HFR *unless*!!! the Missing Link comes to pass, so to speak. The Missing Link would change almost everything, and overwhelmingly for the better.)
Allow me to posit a scenario: Feds are saying to Investors: "If we finance the Missing Link, just by our federal resources alone, with the radical change that would result, would you be interested in financing/underwriting/overseeing all the many new opportunities made available?"
Frankly, I see the Missing Link alone as great potential for investment funds to at least partially benefit from and for this nation, but if there's reluctance to take 'the first big step', the Feds can do it alone if Investment picks up the opportunities that result.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...monton-not-feasible-finds-committee-1.2652342
Allow me to posit a scenario: Feds are saying to Investors: "If we finance the Missing Link, just by our federal resources alone, with the radical change that would result, would you be interested in financing/underwriting/overseeing all the many new opportunities made available?"
Frankly, I see the Missing Link alone as great potential for investment funds to at least partially benefit from and for this nation, but if there's reluctance to take 'the first big step', the Feds can do it alone if Investment picks up the opportunities that result.
steveintoronto
Superstar
Posting these in full, haven't had time to digest them, just tripped across them:
http://www.thepeterboroughexaminer.com/2016/11/16/light-at-the-end-of-the-train-tunnel
http://dailycommercialnews.com/Infr...nadas-transportation-future-Garneau-1019903W/Trade, innovation Canada’s transportation future: Garneau
0 32 Infrastructure
by Lindsey Cole Nov 17, 2016
The year 2030 will look vastly different when it comes to transportation systems in Canada, with clean, green and innovative advancements at the forefront, federal Minister of Transport Marc Garneau predicted at the Canadian Council for Public-Private Partnerships (CCPPP) conference in Toronto.
Marc Garneau, Canada’s transport minister, delivered the opening keynote address at this year’s CCPPP conference. Garneau presented the federal government’s vision for its Transportation 2030 strategy which is focused on a green and innovative transportation future. - Photo: WARREN FREY
"This year's conference theme and its focus on the future is fitting," he explained, since the 24th annual conference is coined Innovating our Future.
"Transportation, innovation and infrastructure cannot exist in isolation. They are intertwined and interdependent. In order to realize the vision we have set forth we need to create successful P3s. We need to support innovation and invest in infrastructure that can support Canada's transportation system into the future."
Garneau envisioned a country where "there will be smart cars using smart roads and unmanned aerial vehicles in the skies."
He highlighted how the federal government, through its Transportation 2030 strategy, will work with the provinces on a "pan-Canadian" framework to reduce pollution by 30 per cent from 2005 levels by 2030. This means investing in smart grids, electricity transmission, renewable power and smart cities that will lead to cleaner transportation technology.
He said the government has already invested $62 million in electric car charging and low-emission fuelling stations.
"The transportation sector accounts for almost a quarter of all greenhouse gases in Canada and 80 per cent of these emissions come from cars and trucks, the two big elephants in the tent," he said.
"Canada's transportation system in 2030 will be increasingly electrified, supporting alternative fuels. We must focus on investing on the future of these sectors so that they are cleaner and more environmentally responsible."
When an audience question surfaced pertaining to tolls as a method to potentially pay for the infrastructure road upgrades in the future, Garneau stated it is a possibility.
"We certainly realize that if the P3 (public-private partnership) concept is going to work...it will only work if it's a good business case for the business sector," Garneau said. "We're open to that concept. It is something that will be examined."
Another key focus Garneau outlined during his address was on trade corridors and getting goods, services and people to global markets. He said the federal government is investing $10.1 billion in transportation infrastructure to help eliminate bottlenecks in order to build more "robust" trade corridors.
"We know that trade will be critical to the Canadian economy and that trade will have shifted significantly to Asia and other developing regions," he stated. "We must be able to get Canadian products, services and people to key markets. We will achieve this by creating advanced gateways and seamless logistics in intelligent infrastructure. That takes investment — investment that must be made today."
Mark Romoff, president and CEO of the CCPPP, said the focus on trade enabling infrastructure could provide more opportunities for P3 projects.
"All of a sudden you have other areas that have not historically been areas or sectors where the P3 model has been applied, but it fits it perfectly," he said.
"And so there are opportunities now, in terms of port development, whether it's out in British Columbia or other parts of the country, where I think you're going to find a pretty good mapping with the structure and methodology that the P3 brings because these are big infrastructure projects."
"The kinds of projects he was talking about are all large and complex and they'll appear in the next phase of the government's infrastructure strategy and plan, so I think there's encouraging news there for us," Romoff added.
Garneau mentioned there are several projects already underway in Canada that are improving the flow of trade, such as improvements to the port of Halifax, the Gordie Howe International Bridge project between Detroit, Mich. and Windsor, Ont. and the Champlain Bridge project in Montreal.
He also mentioned a proposal from Via Rail that the federal government is currently studying which would see more trains flowing along the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal corridor. That could only be possible with "a dedicated rail track," he said, adding the government set aside $3.3 million in the 2016 budget to study the project's feasibility, which would likely be built using a P3 model.
"It's an exciting proposal. Having its own dedicated line will allow it to go at higher speeds. We're looking at it to see if the business case is good. We just have to do our due diligence," he said.
Nov 17, 2016
rbt
Senior Member
Trudeau ought to be able to get a second term pretty easily unless something major happens between now and the election. Good to strong support everywhere but Alberta; and even in Alberta the Liberals are polling unusually well (still well behind the conservatives, but better than usual).
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kEiThZ
Superstar
SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
Could be something, could be nothing. Check out this slide from Metrolinx's electrification consultations. It shows Metrolinx OCS work along Richmond Hill line until just south of Eastern Ave. The Richmond Hill isn't slated to be electrified, so is this being provisioned in as a connection to VIA's electrified dedicated tracks program?
https://www.metrolinxengage.com/sit...src_conceptual_electrification_4_nov_2016.pdf
https://www.metrolinxengage.com/sit...src_conceptual_electrification_4_nov_2016.pdf
crs1026
Superstar
Good catch. It's possible that the "property line" between a VIA line and USRC will be up around the bend.
Another scenario might be using that tail track area for layover. Don Yard is used to capacity and I have seen consists parked on the north side during the day. That ROW around the bend is actually three tracks wide - the CN used to have a service track there as well as its main line. The track diagrams in the RER Business Case document (pg 124ish of the appendix) shows a new track there with the notation "Extend Canal Track".
- Paul
Another scenario might be using that tail track area for layover. Don Yard is used to capacity and I have seen consists parked on the north side during the day. That ROW around the bend is actually three tracks wide - the CN used to have a service track there as well as its main line. The track diagrams in the RER Business Case document (pg 124ish of the appendix) shows a new track there with the notation "Extend Canal Track".
- Paul
smallspy
Senior Member
GO/Metrolinx owns all of the tracks in question up there, so there really is no property line to speak of.
The electrification is being done as the tracks around the bend and up to the Bala and Belleville Subs, but only within the limits of the USRC, are currently used as storage tracks at various times of the day.
Dan
Toronto, Ont.