roger1818
Senior Member
Even with an average speed of only 120 km/h, the extra 8 km (14 km - 6 km) to have trains to travel via Ottawa instead of Kingston, would only add 4 minutes to the trip, everything else being equal.
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VIA Rail
- Thread starter ehlow
- Start date
Even with an average speed of only 120 km/h, the extra 8 km (14 km - 6 km) to have trains to travel via Ottawa instead of Kingston, would only add 4 minutes to the trip, everything else being equal.
nfitz
Superstar
On the other hand, with fewer places worth stopping on the northern route, you could gain time. It's hard to justify running a lot of expresses non-stop through Kingston; but less so for Sharbot Lake.
Urban Sky
Senior Member
Indeed, it really puzzles me that so many railfans seem to insist that a rail corridor which passes through nothing but farmland and forests for the first 90 km after leaving the GTHA behind would be fantastic for Commuter Rail, but horrible for Express intercity services…
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nfitz
Superstar
I'm not sure what I said there that indicates the alignment is horrible. Or that commuter rail should stretch to Peterborough.
If one wants to be pedantic, it's only 34 km from the GTHA to Peterborough. Though I don't think there's much need for commuter rail east of Pickering, given after that the line generally runs along the ridge of the Oak Ridges Moraine. I wonder if there's a way to move the commuter line to go along the proposed 407 transitway east of Green River, to keep it in the urban area defined in the Places to Grow act.
At the same time, running the occasional GO run out to Peterborough during peak would help connect Peterborough to Durham and Scarborough, rather than those who want to go downtown. But it doesn't need a commuter train every 15-minute all-day.
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Urban Sky
Senior Member
Sorry, I was (maybe clumsily) expressing my agreement with you (as opposed to the kind of “Lakeshore or Bust!” railfan crowd)! Havelock is good for Express Intercity and horrible for Commuter Rail. Lakeshore is good for normal Intercity (the kind you can squeeze between two freight trains), but horrible for Express Intercity (because you’d need to build an entirely new infrastructure through a comparatively densely populated stretch of land).
Indeed, you might end up with some peak GO trains if HFR/HSR lacks the space for accommodating P’boro-TRTO commuters during rush hour, but the point is that upgrading the Havelock Sub to competitive passenger speeds could never be justified for GO service alone…
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nfitz
Superstar
What's the track limitation for the Kingston sub? The piece through Toronto is 6 tracks (though Metrolinx has managed to sterilize all 6 in the short piece from the Don to Pape Avenue with the new subway line).
Urban Sky
Senior Member
I’m afraid it doesn’t really matter as long as CN’s policy seems to be that they claim dispatching sovereignty over any tracks laid within their ROW, regardless of how many there are and who paid for them…
nfitz
Superstar
I don't know how this isn't a factor with plans to run alongside CP track instead of the CN track; sure, CP might be more co-operative this year, but we know these things quickly change (shame that neither CN nor CP were in any of the HFR consortiums).
Either way, it could be fixed by legislation; or perhaps even regulation. And the feds are fools if they don't protect themselves no matter whose track they run along.
On the other hand ... the feds ARE fools. Sigh ...
crs1026
Superstar
Indeed - and this seems like a place where our government is being pretty passive.
One has to think that the Pickering-Bowmanville stretch will become a bottleneck for VIA even with the through service moving to the Peterborough route. I can’t see why one or more new tracks can’t be squeezed into that stretch. It would make a lot more sense to separate these from freight from the start.
I can imagine a “VIA Sub” (similar premise to the GO Sub) beginning at Oshawa and over time taking VIA completely off CN. The two lines could be immediately adjacent, encroaching on CN’s RoW but operationally separate. West of Oshawa, I imagine the York Sub might need to be extended eastward to restore passing capacity for today’s long freights (as was the case in the past). Seems like a single mixed line might suffice here - imho it’s quite reasonable for CN to suck it up about that.
A longer term thing than the Peterborough project, and not a substitute for it….but if the basic parameters aren’t roughed in now…
- Paul
Sunnyside
Active Member
Peterborough strikes me as the kind of grey area between VIA and GO that needs some kind of service, but is too easy for either side to claim is 'not their problem' because of the distance. It fits into the same camp of KWC/Guelph, Barrie, Hamilton, maybe even Niagara and Brantford- the extant cities whose population mostly works within them and doesn't commute to Toronto en masse, but there is a substantial number who do so more like an 'intercity' trip. IMO its the kind of distance where an hourly VIA service or dedicated GO service makes the most sense for the time being, unless there are parts of the urban region that are close enough to justify something more. I'm not so sure Peterborough is as integrated in the Golden Horseshoe like this as some of the other cities mentioned, so it might be better to err on the side of intercity travel for now- especially if its easier to deliver in that manner. We don't want a London GO situation where local travel is supposed to make the case better, but can't because GO couldn't throw any money at it. HFR presents this funding opportunity; GO can intermingle with HFR to Peterborough to provide that marginal level of increased service if needed.
lenaitch
Senior Member
I don't know for certain, but I get the sense that, if there is any commuter movement in and out of Peterborough it is to the lakeshore Durham cities. When GM was in full swing, a significant number of workers lived in Peterborough and surroundings.
crs1026
Superstar
I would agree, but I would not get hung up on what is, as compared to what could be.
My impression is, a substantial number of Torontonians would gladly relocate to Peterborough if there were better links back to the GTA..... and a substantial number of Peterbilts would regularly visit Toronto more frequently for business or liesure if there were a better faster option than driving to Oshawa GO. And Peterborough could grow centers of industry and education (the latter is already well in place) if the city joined the Ontario rail network.
My theory is that Peterborough could become a solid relief valve for development, joining Hamilton Kitchener Brantford and London.... just by adding rail passenger service.
None of this implies building stations in between. I am firmly opposed to any erosion of the Northumberland Forest and related Greenbelt. GO stations along that line would be toxic as they would inevitably drive development where it should not be tolerated.
- Paul
Northern Light
Superstar
A quick once over of the line indicates to me:
There is generally sufficient room (barely) for 2 additional tracks between the GO sub and the CN Kingston Sub, from the York sub to Whitby GO.
There would be a need to reconstruct the bridges at Liverpool and Brock to allow for those rails to pass through.
The other bridges appear to have room; and the underpasses have space for rail bridges.
East of Whitby looks a bit challenging with the GO Yard there and extra CN Tracks, some realignment would likely be needed.
Garuda
Active Member
Up until 2010~ I would have considered Guelph and Peterborough to very similar cities, more or less. But introduced of GO, gradually service improvements, a condo boom fueled by people leaving Toronto for a "cheaper" cit but still close Guelph and the KWC region have become very popular. Guelph is leaving Peterborough in the dust in terms of urban growth. If Peterborough had a regional rail service and therefore better integration with the Golden Horseshoe then it could very well be growing at the same pace.
lenaitch
Senior Member
Perhaps they want it that way (I don't really know). A satellite community based primarily as a residential bedroom s destined to be expensive. As buyers explore out from the more expensive centre, prices start creeping up. The challenge for smaller cities is to attract and maintain non-retail industry to diversify their tax base.
A satellite community where residents may occasionally want to trek to the big city will have different transportation needs than one that is a bedroom community full of regular commuters.