University Avenue - Toronto's Grand Avenue?

[kkgg7]

Different cities, different approaches to parks, that's all. Central Park is a "fake" version of nature, along the lines of Capability Brown's manufactured landscapes in Britain from over a century before, whereas High Park, John Howard's gift to Torontonians, isn't.

I honestly don't see how that matters if a park is "fake nature" or "real nature". You are not implying that High Park is somehow better designed and more enjoyable than Central Park, are you? I am sure some people will claim so for whatever reason they think they believe.

I like High Park, but it is no where near a great urban park like Central Park is. It is so far from the city centre basically in the suburb, and it is not beautiful in an elegant way. It has too little to offer culturally. Many will say they prefer its natural state without too much man made stuff (save you the time, Torontoians always do that), but if someone really wants real nature, there is plenty outside the city of Toronto. There is a lot to be improved in High Park. It is like most of everything else - mediocre yet people pretend it is some sort of gem.

 

[jn_12]

I honestly don't see how that matters if a park is "fake nature" or "real nature". You are not implying that High Park is somehow better designed and more enjoyable than Central Park, are you? I am sure some people will claim so for whatever reason they think they believe.

I like High Park, but it is no where near a great urban park like Central Park is. It is so far from the city centre basically in the suburb, and it is not beautiful in an elegant way. It has too little to offer culturally. Many will say they prefer its natural state without too much man made stuff (save you the time, Torontoians always do that), but if someone really wants real nature, there is plenty outside the city of Toronto. There is a lot to be improved in High Park. It is like most of everything else - mediocre yet people pretend it is some sort of gem.

It really does seem that many of your posts can be summed up as such:
"Toronto doesn't have a park that competes with the world's greatest park."
"Toronto doesn't have a waterfront that competes with the world's greatest waterfront."
"Toronto doesn't have a grand street that competes with the world's greatest grand street."
"Toronto doesn't have a downtown that competes with the world's greatest downtowns."
"Toronto doesn't have a transit system that competes with the world's greatest transit system."
"Toronto doesn't have a museum that competes with the world's greatest museum."
"Toronto doesn't have street food that competes with the world's greatest street food."
"Toronto doesn't have a market that competes with the world's greatest market."
"Toronto doesn't have...

 

[taal]

According the national geographic we actually do have the greatest market:

http://travel.nationalgeographic.com/travel/top-10/food-markets/#page=1

 

[jn_12]

According the national geographic we actually do have the greatest market:

http://travel.nationalgeographic.com/travel/top-10/food-markets/#page=1

I know. Pretty awesome. But according to our friend kkgg7 no one in Asia would come to our market because they have better ones.

 

[kkgg7]

According the national geographic we actually do have the greatest market:

http://travel.nationalgeographic.com/travel/top-10/food-markets/#page=1

The markets, LMAO....

Honestly such lists can only come from an North American magazine. You know why? These "markets" are special only on the land of North America, where the majority of families go to big chain grocery stores for food, and consider farmers markets as something unique and interesting.

In the rest of the world, people don't buy food from the stores with ATM machines, credit card readers and cashiers. They don't buy dead fish and chicken from the shelf. They buy groceries from --- markets. Where I grew up, every family goes to the market in the morning to buy fresh vegetable and fruits from different food stands (unlikely in NA, you buy once a week and store everything in the fridge). That's how people live their lives. Because the population density is high, there is a grocery market literally every 1KM in the city, and people can always walk for less than 10 minutes for fresh grocery, including live fish, crabs, shrimps and yes, live chicken. The seller will kill the chicken on the spot. Not FROZEN ones in boxes. When my mother visited me, she was shocked that I was eating some broccolis bought three days ago, and that I was cooking frozen shrimps which has been in the freezer for a week.

You know why I felt blase about Kensington Market or St Lawrence Market, which seems to be considered some sort of a treasure, because other cities have something like them in every corner. Sometimes people can be so ignorant about the rest of the world.

The best markets in the world, what a hilarious list. 5 in Americas and 4 in Europe, the other in not-so-Asian Singapore, how typical of a white centric magazine and mindset! Do me a favour and try to ignore whatever it says.

 

[gabe]

"Damn all these hillbilly Toronto redneck!"

-Kahn Souphanousinphone

 

[LordWanker]

The markets, LMAO....

Honestly such lists can only come from an North American magazine. You know why? These "markets" are special only on the land of North America, where the majority of families go to big chain grocery stores for food, and consider farmers markets as something unique and interesting.

In the rest of the world, people don't buy food from the stores with ATM machines, credit card readers and cashiers. They don't buy dead fish and chicken from the shelf. They buy groceries from --- markets. Where I grew up, every family goes to the market in the morning to buy fresh vegetable and fruits from different food stands (unlikely in NA, you buy once a week and store everything in the fridge). That's how people live their lives. Because the population density is high, there is a grocery market literally every 1KM in the city, and people can always walk for less than 10 minutes for fresh grocery, including live fish, crabs, shrimps and yes, live chicken. The seller will kill the chicken on the spot. Not FROZEN ones in boxes. When my mother visited me, she was shocked that I was eating some broccolis bought three days ago, and that I was cooking frozen shrimps which has been in the freezer for a week.

You know why I felt blase about Kensington Market or St Lawrence Market, which seems to be considered some sort of a treasure, because other cities have something like them in every corner. Sometimes people can be so ignorant about the rest of the world.

The best markets in the world, what a hilarious list. 5 in Americas and 4 in Europe, the other in not-so-Asian Singapore, how typical of a white centric magazine and mindset! Do me a favour and try to ignore whatever it says.

Sounds like you are the one who is suffering from cultural shock and rather selective ignorance. So care to enlighten us with examples or specific names of your "best markets in the world" ?

 

[k10ery]

The best markets in the world, what a hilarious list. 5 in Americas and 4 in Europe, the other in not-so-Asian Singapore, how typical of a white centric magazine and mindset! Do me a favour and try to ignore whatever it says.

Actually, he's probably right, no? I don't really know Asia, but I for one have seen more impressive central markets in - top of my head - Guadalajara, Istanbul, Male' (Maldives). Now, none of them was too awesome when it came to lattes or bagels or the like. But they were bigger, as diverse, and far better used by locals than SLM. (And Male's betel suppliers substituted fine for the lattes.)

 

[freshcutgrass]

Mediocrity is the most accurate word to describe Toronto's urban planning

I guess it depends on what you consider good urban planning. In actual international urban planning circles (as opposed to little anonymous chat forumers), Toronto has been considered somewhat of a benchmark for urban planning in many areas. Mediocrity is not the correct term to describe what you are trying to say. Toronto is fairly consistent in its urban planning...not mediocre. And that is a hallmark of good urban planning. Toronto doesn't consistently rank very high on those various "best city" lists by coincidence.

I like High Park, but it is no where near a great urban park like Central Park is.

Central Park is a great urban park mostly because of where it's located, rather than the merits of the park itself. Toronto is simply lucky when it comes to park/green space, as we are naturally very well endowed. Toronto has 1500 parks spread out all over the city, so everyone can enjoy parks...we also have a 26,000 acre ravine system that runs all over the city...plus 138 kms of lakefront shoreline (that is the lucky part).

As great as Central Park is, the millions of people who live and work in Manhattan don't exactly have great green space access. And considering it's an island, it's waterfront isn't really all that great either. NYC can be very impressive in some ways...and downright sh*tty in many others. That's why consistency is important.

 

[RC8]

kkgg7 wants us to emulate the cities with the highest inequality and highest suicide rates in the world.

Personally I think High Park is what you make of it. It isn't inherently great due to the noisy Gardiner (which ruins all our waterfront), but it's still pretty incredible if you want to really explore it. Got chased by a coyote once!

 

[freshcutgrass]

kkgg7 wants us to emulate the cities with the highest inequality and highest suicide rates in the world.

Well, the trick is to not look at things myopically. You don't look at Central Park by itself and say..."oh I love that, why can't we have that"...you look at the entire park system, because that's how you compare cities. You have to look at things contextually.

Do you really want to have Central Park? Are you sure? Because you will have to have everything that comes with it.

Central Park fell into disrepair not long after it was built, and remained so right up until the 1980's, when like most things in NYC, had to be taken over and run by private not-for-profit organizations. It took $600 million to get it into the shape it is now, and takes over $40 million annually to maintain. That's more than a dollar for every visitor. And at the end of the day, Manhattan has a Central Park, but hardly a great park system. I prefer Toronto's more abundant and cheaper to maintain park system.

 

[freshcutgrass]

To stay on topic....

University Ave is what it is I guess. It's a grand avenue of mostly institutional purposes. It's not a standard commercial street, but that's fine...the concentration of institutions provides a certain advantage and context that creates a "district", and that's fine. It is certainly not "dead", but it's not an all-hours street like other commercial streets.

It could use some more TLC as to not look tatty, but overall, it's still a "grand" avenue.

But if a plan to rethink it were going to happen, then it could definitely be improved and redesigned to be even better. The skinny "park" running up the middle may have some aesthetic value, but hardly practical in terms of ever being used as a "park".

If I were to start from scratch, I would remove the median park and one lane in each direction. I would add this space to each side of the street, creating a new narrow ribbon park about the same size as the existing median on either side, rather than the middle. This would have the same green space aesthetic function as the median, only now it could be much more usable by pedestrians and people in all those buildings (how many people bother to cross into the median to enjoy this space....almost none).

A new linear park will give it a more pleasant streetscape, but since University's exclusive institutional/office nature means it will never be an all-hours street, some other function must be put there to create a new "destination" beyond its current use.

So what can we do to achieve this? Well, I always thought the City's street food vending idea was a good one, only badly implemented and bureaucratized into oblivion. I would reintroduce this idea, and use the length of University, from Queen to College to create a new street food "zone"along the new linear park system. On these new linear parks, and close to the curb, I would build permanent kiosks for food vendors, rather than using portable "carts". These would be fully outfitted and designed via a competition to have a contextual "iconic" look, and create a new permanent foodie destination that would draw people outside of usual lunch-time crowds....it would become a tourist destination, and a venue for up-and-coming chefs. The linear park would include lots of outdoor cafe seating and public washrooms built and adequately positioned throughout the avenue.

Sure, it would cost money to implement, but rather than spending money maintaining its rather sterile "grandness" status quo, it would create a new destination for the city....make the added improvement it needs anyway....and provide good income that never existed from leases of food kiosks to provide for its maintenance. It might even provide a profit for the city.

 

[RC8]

I personally rather appreciate the sterile greatness of University Ave.

In every other street in this city I'm being bombarded with publicity and told what to buy and what not to buy. Both from Queens Park and walking up to it I feel University Ave. allows me to enjoy grandious urban fabric without being invited to consume at every step.

I love vibrant strips and streets, but University Ave. possesses a lot of value for me as is. I often walk from the legislature to my home in Cityplace and University Ave. provides one of the most pleasant experiences of any North South street.

 

[adma]

I guess it depends on what you consider good urban planning. In actual international urban planning circles (as opposed to little anonymous chat forumers)

Though Ford Nation would rather empower said "little anonymous chat forumers". Because they're "little", just like "the little guy". Real taxpayers, not highfalutin "experts";-)

kkgg7 wants us to emulate the cities with the highest inequality and highest suicide rates in the world.

Suicide weeds out the inferior and unworthy, you know. Eugenics-by-gravity, one might call it.

 

[freshcutgrass]

Though Ford Nation would rather empower said "little anonymous chat forumers". Because they're "little", just like "the little guy". Real taxpayers, not highfalutin "experts";-)

I don't think "Ford Nation" and Rob Ford have ever met. All these "little people" he says he talks to at the local Tim's or Wendy's are like his schemes....fiction!!

I love vibrant strips and streets, but University Ave. possesses a lot of value for me as is.

Yea...me too. I wouldn't want every street to be like that, but it's good to have it, as opposed to not having it. But if it were to be rethought, it could be done better. And it certainly needs to be maintained as a higher priority, since it's such a visible asset. Same as City Hall & NFS...if you're short on cash, take it from something else.

But I don't choose to stroll down University that much...as a hypochondriac, all I can think of is all those people sitting in hospital rooms, dying of cancer & flesh eating disease. Plus it is where my dentist is...a source of pain and fiscal misery for me.