Union Station LRT Loop Reconfiguration (TTC, Proposed)

[salsa]

There's money for Dumb Track but not for waterfront transit. What a joke.

 

[44 North]

what the hell. Really? I need more info, but I guess Oliver Moore must've just gotten this news recently. Aside from cost savings, I guess one benefit of this tentative plan is the creation of a cross-waterfront streetcar line. But if they do decide to do this we'd lose streetcar service for 2-3 years, and lose the tunnel altogether (with it being converted to this walkalator). People with mobility issues would be forced to walk the 400m, and the other ~50,000 would...glide.

Does a moving walkway even qualify as transit?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Woah. So we're losing streetcar service on Bay Street? Unbelievable.

That tunnel is going to be more than half a kilometre long, about 3.6 times longer than the Spadina tunnel.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

This is a load of crap. This tunnel was projected to move 10,000 pphpd, twice the amount of the Sheppard Subway and Eglinton Crosstown. Unbelievable.

 

[salsa]

what the hell. Really? I need more info, but I guess Oliver Moore must've just gotten this news recently.

I think it came from today's TTC board meeting, but that's all I know. Ironically, the moving sidewalk idea has been proposed before but was rejected due to cost (according to page 3 of this thread).

 

[Duck]

Whoah whoah Whoah, APM?! That's an option??? So cool! Details?

 

[Amare]

We're talking about the TTC and the City of Toronto, two groups that do things that make absolutely no sense. So they are planning on doing garbage like this, but they cant re-construct a walkway that actually makes sense (between the B-D Spadina and Y-U-S Spadina).

While we're at it, they should build pedestrian tunnels to connect all the stations on the University line to the Yonge line. That's how ridiculous this proposal sounds.

 

[Duck]

What is it about this proposal that is making people upset? (Honest question - to an outsider, having a rail-based connection along the East harbourfront seems to make sense since there is a connection to the west)

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

For information, the discussion is from the TTC Budget Committee meeting today:

http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Com...tee_meetings/Budget/2015/November_9/index.jsp

No specific info in the presentation though.

AoD

 

[TheTigerMaster]

What is it about this proposal that is making people upset? (Honest question - to an outsider, having a rail-based connection along the East harbourfront seems to make sense since there is a connection to the west)

This streetcar tunnel is projected to move a huge amount of people (about half the peak point/hour usage of the Bloor-Danforth subway). It was originally planned to be a streetcar tunnel to Union Station, but now they want to built a pedestrian tunnel due to lack of funding. It's ridiculous that a few hundred million dollars can't be found for this, when projects with nebulous benefits (ahem... SmartTrack) have no problem getting billions n

 

[44 North]

Whoah whoah Whoah, APM?! That's an option??? So cool! Details?

Haha, I thought the mention of a people mover in that report would pique your interest...I know you like that mode. That screenshot is from an older (2013ish) report about the East Bayfront LRT (or BRT downgrade), with a few pages about affordable alternatives to having a direct Union connection. In other words: the LRT would still be built into the eastern waterfront as planned. But instead of making a 400m beeline from Queens Quay East into Union Loop, both QQE and QQW streetcars would be merged into one cross-waterfront line - with the stop at Bay St offering a 400m underground connection service direct to Union.

Just what kind of service? An Automated People Mover was ruled out for obvious reasons (as can be seen in that screenshot above). AFAIK it hasn't been brought back. The moving walkway was also ruled out, though it's apparently now back on the table.

Some have predicted that the costs, complexity, and disruption of rebuilding Union Loop for the QQELRT was going to result in some kind of 'back to the drawing board' situation. But I don't think anyone supported a moving walkway.

 

[Megaton327]

Haha, I thought the mention of a people mover in that report would pique your interest...I know you like that mode. That screenshot is from an older (2013ish) report about the East Bayfront LRT (or BRT downgrade), with a few pages about affordable alternatives to having a direct Union connection. In other words: the LRT would still be built into the eastern waterfront as planned. But instead of making a 400m beeline from Queens Quay East into Union Loop, both QQE and QQW streetcars would be merged into one cross-waterfront line - with the stop at Bay St offering a 400m underground connection service direct to Union.

Just what kind of service? An Automated People Mover was ruled out for obvious reasons (as can be seen in that screenshot above). AFAIK it hasn't been brought back. The moving walkway was also ruled out, though it's apparently now back on the table.

Some have predicted that the costs, complexity, and disruption of rebuilding Union Loop for the QQELRT was going to result in some kind of 'back to the drawing board' situation. But I don't think anyone supported a moving walkway.

If they go this route, I think the far more likely outcome is that all of those WWLRT/EBLRT riders who get off at Bay will walk over to the 509/510 stop, if that tunnel isn't eliminated, and massively overcrowd them making it impossible for riders going farther to actually board them. If so, I can see them getting rid of the Queen's Quay Station stop for the 509/510 just to avoid that.

 

[44 North]

If they go this route, I think the far more likely outcome is that all of those WWLRT/EBLRT riders who get off at Bay will walk over to the 509/510 stop, if that tunnel isn't eliminated, and massively overcrowd them making it impossible for riders going farther to actually board them. If so, I can see them getting rid of the Queen's Quay Station stop for the 509/510 just to avoid that.

Yeah, I think the whole thing was to completely remove the 509/510 portal altogether and instead run it straight through on the surface along QQE toward the Port Lands. So in other words the East Bayfront LRT would become an extension of the 509/510. The Ferry Docks station and tunnel would then be repurposed for the moving walkway which all Union-bound 509/510 riders would have to use (whether coming from the east or west).

 

[Megaton327]

Yeah, I think the whole thing was to completely remove the 509/510 portal altogether and instead run it straight through on the surface along QQE toward the Port Lands. So in other words the East Bayfront LRT would become an extension of the 509/510. The Ferry Docks station and tunnel would then be repurposed for the moving walkway which all Union-bound 509/510 riders would have to use (whether coming from the east or west).

Yikes. I live along the 509 and the service is close enough to unusable now, incredibly poorly managed with massive gaps off-peak and horrendously overcrowded on peak...obviously not a single person behind this plan has ever used it, or they'd realize how idiotic it is.

 

[rbt]

While we're at it, they should build pedestrian tunnels to connect all the stations on the University line to the Yonge line. That's how ridiculous this proposal sounds.

We have pedestrian tunnels connecting King to St. Andrew, and almost connecting Queen to Osgoode.