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Ubisoft coming to Toronto

How much space would an 800 employee Ubisoft office need?

For example... The southeast part of central Toronto tends to have a fair amount of web design and animation places, but those tend to be small companies.
 
This isn't about the jobs themselves; that figure is just for feel-good mass media consumption. It's about establishing a new high-growth industry here, reinforcing Toronto's existing high tech and cultural sectors, building up gravitational pull for international talent, attracting investment, and realizing the "knowledge economy" strategy Ontario advertises heavily overseas (check out virtually any issue of The Economist).

'Synergy' is an often abused word, but it fits here.
 
This is good news. This is what we need more investment in. It worries me to see our governments invest billions in jobs related to the oil sands and auto manufacturing -- dying industries of the past, -- while barely acknowledging the careers of the future. There are a lot of hi-tech and software jobs in Toronto, but they tend to be nearly invisible. A few dozen guys on computers can be tucked into small offices and aren't very noticeable. Areas like Liberty Village and King East have small clusters of tech firms that many people don't know about.

Yes this is just a few jobs, but they are good jobs, and will bring money into the city once established. In a few years competitors may set up shop nearby to poach off the talent nurtured by Ubisoft; groups of employees might leave and create their own start-ups. The initial government investment is just to help get the company established, but if things work out right, the investment could pay dividends for many decades.

My main concern is that this business opens somewhere downtown, not in the highway off-ramp wastelands around Hwy 7 and the 404. The wonderfully urban and green SAS headquarters building could be something for them to aspire to.
 
Meet the new economy, same as the old economy.
 
As far as corporate subsidies go, this looks like a good investment. Yes, it's $328k/job, but most of those jobs would be > $50k/job. Also, this will benefit other businesses in that industry (think digital media companies, sound, studios for motion capture).
 
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Apparently the subsidy is tax credits. One could argue that this is incremental tax revenue, rather than foregone existing revenue.
 
I have no problem with tax credits. The decrease in EI payouts, and the increase in income taxes/GST/PST will offset the losses from the corporate tax. In fact, I'm against corporate taxes in general, except at a minimal level, since they probably get downloaded to the consumer in the form of lower pay/higher prices. Haven't done much research on the subject, though.
 
I have no problem with tax credits. The decrease in EI payouts, and the increase in income taxes/GST/PST will offset the losses from the corporate tax. In fact, I'm against corporate taxes in general, except at a minimal level, since they probably get downloaded to the consumer in the form of lower pay/higher prices. Haven't done much research on the subject, though.

That's basically exactly correct.
 
Problem

I have no problem with tax credits. The decrease in EI payouts, and the increase in income taxes/GST/PST will offset the losses from the corporate tax. In fact, I'm against corporate taxes in general, except at a minimal level, since they probably get downloaded to the consumer in the form of lower pay/higher prices. Haven't done much research on the subject, though.

The problem with the logic that income taxes etc. etc. will off-set the loss from the tax credits is that it only applies if either:

A) The people who receive Ubisoft jobs are currently unemployed, on EI etc .

B) Those same people currently do work at significantly lower wage rates.

I find either scenario to be unlikely.

For the most part I don't think we have an abundance of unemployed and underemployed software engineers. Undoubtedly we have some, as we do have some unemployment in almost all sectors, in any economy.

However, a profession where we don't have enormous number of graduates, in a growing profession, where those workers are comparatively high-skill does not sound like a likely profession to have an inordinate unemployment rate.

So it would seem unlikely that these jobs will represent, in the majority of cases, workers going from EI or Social Assistance to employment.

Rather, there will likely be some competition for existing employers of this type in the City, in which employees are poached and average wages go up modestly....

And there will likely be some workers poached from other Cities, including, likely other Ubisoft offices.

Under this scenario, the gains are not nearly as large.

If one assumes that workers are already employed, and in Toronto, but simply switch jobs for a modest pay hike, then there is some peripheral increase in income tax, but only on the marginal increase in income; and the higher wages are partially offset by likely reducing the profitability of other Toronto area employers in this sector in short-term due to a wage spike from competition for workers.

If one assumes a large number of workers from out-of-province relocating here, there is indeed a gain. But the marginal gain is the 'profit' the government shows after deducting for new service delivery costs.
This is far less than the gross increase in income taxes.

Further, to the extent these workers are just poached from Quebec or somewhere else in Canada, that other province will suffer a decline in circumstances, which will be compensated for through Federal Equalization payments which will take back a portion of any gain.

I'm not opposed to strategic intervention, particularly though education, infrastructure and basic social supports, but corporate welfare looks very thin-end-of-the-wedge to me in terms of government giving away tax dollars for very little gain, except to the recipient business.

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As a side note to the suggestion that doing away with corporate taxes makes sense.

The problem is the same as doing the Income Trust situation, which didn't last.

First off, the government needs some money from somewhere to function.

If you create a tax-shelter scheme under which you can amass an unlimited profit, tax-free, so long as those profits remain within the tax shelter (in this case the company) then why wouldn't everyone parking their money in the shelter, leaving the gov't with a revenue collapse? In turn this either leads to drastic spending cuts; or you would have to raise other taxes significantly to compensate.

Of course its true that taxes businesses taxes their consumers/shareholders etc. But taxing consumers, reducing their discretionary spending effectively taxes businesses; everything affects everything else. The key is striking a balance that comes closest to delivering the most desirable results with the fewest consequences.

As our corporate taxes are already below those in the United States and set to drop to among the lowest in the developed world in the next few years, it would seem, should room be available for tax cuts, it would be more prudent to reduce income taxes on low-income earners, an area where we tax inordinately to the rest of the world, and to our own detriment.
 
why wouldn't everyone parking their money in the shelter, leaving the gov't with a revenue collapse

Corporate taxes are already significantly below personal taxes (especially for small businesses), so there's already an incentive for people to do that. The reason most people don't do it is because there are also a bunch of rules in the income tax act that prevent people from either earning employment income through an interposed corporation or earning investment income in a corporation.

I'm in favour of lowered corporate taxes, although both the federal and Ontario provincial governments have already done a pretty good job of this, with the combined federal and provincial tax rates set to go down to 25% (and about 15% for small businesses) within 4 years (as compared to the highest personal marginal rate in Ontario of 46.41%).
 
Even if no rules were imposed on holding investments in corporations to take advantage of lower taxes, people will eventually withdraw these funds and pay personal income tax. This is because the only reason to save/invest is to delay consumption until the future. In order to consume, money must be withdrawn from the corporation, as personal expenses are taxable benefits. You can't live rent-free in a house owned by a corporation you in turn own. Same with a car, vacations, etc. etc.
 
At 328k/job, this seems pricey. That said it is probably better than pouring money into GM, if money must be thrown at something.

That's a pretty big generalization. I work at a Toronto Animation Studio that was granted the same, albeit smaller provincial incentive. There's a lot of conditions tied to that money, I assure you. Ubi-Soft is kicking in half a billion dollars of it's own money over the 10 year term and must follow strict guidelines on maintaining a Canadian staff of a certain size. The gov't cash comes in the form of tax incentives and reductions....not cold hard tax payer dollars.

To put some things into perspective the operating costs of a studio of this magnitude would be in the 10 million dollar/month range before provincial tax breaks. Ontario is finally following Quebec's and B.C.'s footsteps in allowing big gaming studios to operate here by allowing massive tax reductions.

To anyone arguing the re-distribution of pre-existing jobs, think of it this way. Would you rather see all of the companies move to India or the Philippines?
 
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So I'm not exactly familiar with this industry and I don't have strong feelings about subsidy either way, but I do have some questions about some of the assumptions here. First, are these really good jobs? Second is this investment of strategic significance to the general economy?

Someone noted oil sands and vehicle production as old economy negative sectors, but hold on for a second. The oil sands is a strategic resource and vehicle production is the result of an established industrial complex relying on region strategic advantages. On the other hand creative employments such as this studio or say the film industry are far more transient. We want such activities to thrive and grow but they are actually higher risk investments.
 

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