U.S. Elections 2008

[adma]

And of course, McCain wasn't just born in Panama: he was born in the Canal Zone, which was under US juridiction. (And which presumably also means that somebody born in Puerto Rico or Guam might legitimately become president.)

 

[urbanfan89]

If Obama doesn't win this lawsuit, he loses all of California's electoral votes:



http://www.nbcaugusta.com/news/elections/presheadlines/34587804.html

Even if the judge is a complete moran, it doesn't matter. Obama has way more than 270 + 55 = 325 Electoral Votes.

 

[unimaginative2]

And of course, McCain wasn't just born in Panama: he was born in the Canal Zone, which was under US juridiction. (And which presumably also means that somebody born in Puerto Rico or Guam might legitimately become president.)

Of course, but it's still unprecedented. While Goldwater, for example, was born in a territory, it became a state a few years later. The Canal Zone isn't even U.S. territory anymore. Does this mean that someone born in the Philippines could become President?

Either way, I think that McCain's a perfectly legitimate candidate, and the rule on a president needing to be born in the States is as anachronistic as the Electoral College.

Read the documents that have been filed. Hawaii offers 2 types of certificates. Apparently the one posted by the Obama campaign can be issued by the state upto a year after the birth and to an individual born anywhere as long as the parents can claim residency in Hawaii.

That's absurd. You seem like a pretty sharp guy. I'm surprised even you are taking this Republican email forward stuff seriously. First of all the certificate clearly states that he was born in Honolulu. Sure, anybody can get a Hawaii birth certificate, but if he wasn't born in Hawaii, it's not going to say that his place of birth was Honolulu. Secondly, it was issued only four days after he was born.

According to the writ, Obama has never actually produced a copy of his original hospital issue birth certificate. Complicating the matter, his grandmother claims he was born in Kenya and she witnessed the birth, while apparently Obama's wikipedia bio and his sister claim he was born in two different hospitals in Hawaii. So there is some confusion on the matter. Also, interesting is that the writ claims there are 17 other lawsuits in play as well on the same issue in various jurisdictions throughout the US. So it's just a matter of showing the docs and moving on....

So his wikipedia biography and his sister differ on where he was born? Uh, I'm inclined to believe his sister over wikipedia. I don't have my original hospital birth certificate. The one I have was issued years after my birth, let alone four days. Does that make my birth in Canada dubious? No matter what he does, these Republican email forwarders weren't going to give up. The guy literally posted his birth certificate online saying, plain as day, that he was born in Honolulu, Honolulu, Oahu, Hawaii, United States of America. It cannot possibly get any clearer than that. The State of Hawaii even reaffirmed that the certificate is valid. These cases are useful simply because people will believe that if somebody's suing, there's some legitimacy to their claims. Of course, I can sue anybody for anything and it'll take weeks or even months before there's a hearing so that it can be thrown out of court.

 

[adma]

Of course, but it's still unprecedented. While Goldwater, for example, was born in a territory, it became a state a few years later. The Canal Zone isn't even U.S. territory anymore. Does this mean that someone born in the Philippines could become President?

Well, technically, I suppose if said person was born at a certain date, it's possible. (And I also wonder about people born to troops stationed in Germany, whether some kind of "American citizenship" allowance is possible.)

 

[kEiThZ]

That's absurd. You seem like a pretty sharp guy. I'm surprised even you are taking this Republican email forward stuff seriously. First of all the certificate clearly states that he was born in Honolulu. Sure, anybody can get a Hawaii birth certificate, but if he wasn't born in Hawaii, it's not going to say that his place of birth was Honolulu. Secondly, it was issued only four days after he was born.

Relax, I was merely relaying what was in the affidavit. The crux of the case is important. The contention is that the certification of live birth can be attained even if the child is born outside the US, as per Hawaii's laws. And from what I gather that is a different certificate from a birth certificate, available only if you are born in Hawaii. See below for the other issues....

So his wikipedia biography and his sister differ on where he was born? Uh, I'm inclined to believe his sister over wikipedia. I don't have my original hospital birth certificate. The one I have was issued years after my birth, let alone four days. Does that make my birth in Canada dubious? No matter what he does, these Republican email forwarders weren't going to give up. The guy literally posted his birth certificate online saying, plain as day, that he was born in Honolulu, Honolulu, Oahu, Hawaii, United States of America. It cannot possibly get any clearer than that. The State of Hawaii even reaffirmed that the certificate is valid. These cases are useful simply because people will believe that if somebody's suing, there's some legitimacy to their claims. Of course, I can sue anybody for anything and it'll take weeks or even months before there's a hearing so that it can be thrown out of court.

This is exactly why Obama needs to publish his documents right away. As per the affadavit, there are 17 other cases going on all based on the same basic issues:

1) the place of birth is disputed by his sister and him and most notably by his grand mother who insist he was born in Kenya.
2) the state of Hawaii has for some reason thus far only said that the document was issues by its offices, not that it is accurate.
3) They have said that they have the vault copy of his birth certificate. But for some other court cases, according to the affidavit, Obama has refused to sign the release for the State to release the vault copy.

All this is what feeds conspiracy theories sadly. I don't see why Obama can't sign the release and end over a dozen lawsuits immediately. Seems like a waste of time to me on this stuff. Hopefully, his lawyers have a handle on this....

 

[Brandon716]

Well, the inauguration is upon us. Obama had his train tour today, and CNN was there for the marketing spot. They should call it CMN, the Cable Marketing Network. If anyone actually watched you'd understand somewhat.

I'm glad Obama won over McCain, don't get me wrong, but I find a lot of the rhetoric very boring. If I hear one more American network announce that Barack Obama's election is "only possible in America" I might go insane.

An intensely divided state on racial issues in the name of South Africa elected Nelson Mandela and has already passed gay marriage ahead of the United States.

While not elected, Michaelle Jean is still black and female, and officially one of the heads of state of Canada.

There are a lot of things I enjoy about the fact that America has been able to elect a minority, but being "only an American story" isn't one of them.

I also find it disturbing much of the world seems to be in love with Obama, but I suppose its a good thing in forming good world relations. I worry an intense pro-Obama passion can just as quickly turn into an irrational hatred of the US all over again.

All this hyperbole and rhetoric is interesting to watch, but one thing will be sure about January 20th, 2009. It will be an historic day.

 

[Hydrogen]

While not elected, Michaelle Jean is still black and female, and officially one of the heads of state of Canada.

The head of state in Canada is the Queen.

The GG was appointed, not elected.

 

[Brandon716]

I know the GG isn't elected, as stated in my post. I know the Queen holds the official title as head of state, and I understand the Canadian system of government quite well.

But thanks for the un-necessary reminder!

 

[kEiThZ]

I know the GG isn't elected, as stated in my post. I know the Queen holds the official title as head of state, and I understand the Canadian system of government quite well.

But that's exactly Hydrogen's point. The more apt comparison would be to an elected official. ie our PM. In that sense, I don't see Canada electing a non-white Canadian for a very long time. Though, personally, this does not bother me, cause I'd rather have some qualified by their resume not their skin colour, but the brow beating by some over how the US beat us to it is quite nauseating.

 

[Brandon716]

The pointless discussion about fine details aside, Michaelle Jean is still Governor General of Canada, and despite her status as mostly a symbolic leader she still holds the post.

I happen to respect representative democracy in the style of a Parliamentary system like Canada and the fact that Parliament was able to nominate her to the post, so I accept her for what she is. Canada has a black and female leader before the United States.

And yes, it will be a very long time before someone like Obama would be able to become PM because Canada has a very small African-Canadian population, and an extremely small percent of that small number bothers to get involved with public life and politics. If the factors are because a smaller percent of the population doesn't partake in political discussions by voluntary choice, I hardly think Canadians should worry that they don't have an Obama.

Canada never had the same level of slavery entrenched in such a large swath of its lands. So there isn't the same struggle to overcome as there was in the United States or more recently in South Africa. Canada did have some stories of indentured servitude and what you can call slavery in its very early days, but the numbers are relatively few, and it was indentured servitude where the slave could eventually buy their freedom... Not an entrenched labor camp slavery system where you shipped millions of unwilling people to a foreign land to beat them into submission for the first half of your nation's history.

I think those outside the US who are in awe of Obama's story need to put it in context with an overall world history. Nelson Mandela's story is quite remarkable as well... The world has a lot of stories of overcoming hardship. This is an American story, but it most certainly isn't "only in America" where possibilities occur.

I find Canada interesting on US relations as it seems a large percent of Canadians want nothing to do with the US and defend Canadian identity with a very big passion, while many don't care either way, then there is this unique category of Canadians who want to be American and loathe how they view Canada to be some second rate society.

To be fair, the same thing is true in the US, as many US citizens would rather live in Europe or Canada for the social identity differences among other factors. But in Canada I find most interesting the stories of people who claim the US is the greatest thing since the dawn of mankind over some silly situation. And this doesn't pertain directly to anyone in this discussion, I'm talking about people I've met and talked with before. Yea, I'm sure the US is the greatest thing in the world because we created MTV and have Target. Yea... Right. And then certain people rave about culture in Hollywood, despite half of American TV being produced in Canada. LOL American and Canadian culture is intertwined like no other western power, but man I find some of the arguments people make to be funny. Canada is still very different from the US on many levels, culturally and politically.

If I were a Canadian (and I'm still working on it), I would cherish what is ours as a nation, and really feel comfortable with a history that is proud and multi-cultural on a more real level.

This is a phrase I've said before, and I will repeat it until the end of time. There is more East St. Louis in America than Manhattan.

The greatest thing the United States is best at doing is creating a cartoon of a lifestyle within some pretty wretched conditions to pretend that wretched side doesn't exist. This "cartoon lifestyle" is actually one of the most uniquely American attributes I think virtually no one talks about.

Besides, I don't think many Canadians realize how fundamentally religious the United States still is. Maybe this forum does, but not many Canadians I meet in general life, they always think of Manhattanites or something... Obama isn't going to change the religiousity of the US, on the contrary he's embraced it to get his message across. He's expanding the Office of Faith Based initatives that Bush created. He invited Rick Warren to be his invocation speaker.

America is still America, and the world needs to do away with any intense, irrational hatred from the Bush years and it also needs to get rid of this irrational love of Obama. That's all I am saying.

There are plenty of things that annoy me about Canada as well, but they are more superficial. Like Torontonians who think they don't have enough money to build a subway system. For crying out loud, here in Pittsburgh the city was in bankruptcy and the state took control of the city's finances a few years ago. During that period, they initated the North Shore Tunnel connector to dig the $435 million subway tunnel to the north shore across from downtown, yet Pittsburgh was already bankrupt and being administered by the state of Pennsylvania. LOL

Toronto has enough money to build a subway if it wants it. Just get into McGuinty's political bed and coax some funds out of him.

But I'll leave this Transit City vs Metrolinks discussion for the other sections of the forum.

 

[afransen]

We've had non-white premiers (Ujjal Dosanjh is the one that comes to mind). I have no doubt that we will have a non-white PM in the not-so-distant future. Many of the rising stars in both the Liberal and Conservative parties are non-white--I guess the point is that our lack of a non-caucasian head of government isn't due to any of the "Is a black guy capable of the office" sentiment we heard bandied about on US cable news.

That said, I guess I'm somewhat bigoted because I probably won't vote for anyone who is overtly religious. Harper invoking God in his speeches was not a positive thing for Canada as a secular democracy.

 

[jks]

Definitely. It's not so much the God thing, but when he said "God bless Canada", I wanted to BARF!! No, not because of God, but because THAT"S EXACTLY WHAT BUSH SAYS ALL THE FREAKIN TIME!!! AND it's sorta America's slogan

"God bless America (We are the chose people by God to rule the entire world with our "democracy")

Give me a break!

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

That said, I guess I'm somewhat bigoted because I probably won't vote for anyone who is overtly religious. Harper invoking God in his speeches was not a positive thing for Canada as a secular democracy.

bigoted? you are not bigoted because you wouldn't vote for a person who publicly displays irrational views.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Definitely. It's not so much the God thing, but when he said "God bless Canada", I wanted to BARF!! No, not because of God, but because THAT"S EXACTLY WHAT BUSH SAYS ALL THE FREAKIN TIME!!! AND it's sorta America's slogan

"God bless America (We are the chose people by God to rule the entire world with our "democracy")

Give me a break!

George Carlin - god bless america
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=WHgYrK7B4-w

 

[Brandon716]

George Carlin will be very missed.