U.S. Elections 2008

[detroitbootybass]

Nader is likely to gain a lot of support.

When pigs fly...

 

[detroitbootybass]

It should also be noted that it was Bill Clinton who, in 1996, signed into law the Welfare Reform Act which first permitted religious groups to receive federal government money for social outreach (ie. 'faith based programs').

Al Gore also said pretty much the same thing as Barack Obama when he was on the campaign trail back in 2000.

Even Hillary Clinton talked extensively about expanding 'faith-based initiatives' this past year.

George Bush, whose Republican party held both the House and Senate, was unable to get Congress to agree to fund the programs, so he had to resort to funding via executive orders and the like. It isn't likely that a Democratically-held Congress would agree to fund these programs either, so this becomes more of an empty 'feel good' speech for religious Americans (which is the vast majority) that all politicians from both major parties do each presidential cycle.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

George Bush, whose Republican party held both the House and Senate, was unable to get Congress to agree to fund the programs, so he had to resort to funding via executive orders and the like. It isn't likely that a Democratically-held Congress would agree to fund these programs either, so this becomes more of an empty 'feel good' speech for religious Americans (which is the vast majority) that all politicians from both major parties do each presidential cycle.

i hope it's nothing more than a feel good speech but the problem remains, if he doesn't deliver on his promise, it will be used against him and he will look like a liar if he doesn't use his executive powers. this is a mess. he should have just said nothing. he did not have to appeal to the religious sector because didn't the polls indicate he was ahead of mccain?

 

[detroitbootybass]

if he doesn't deliver on his promise, it will be used against him and he will look like a liar if he doesn't use his executive powers.

Doubtful. What percentage of promises made on the campaign trail actually come to fruitition? Maybe 5% at best? One thing to remember about proposals: they are never as 'good' as supporters think they'll be... and they are never as 'bad' as critics fear - the truth always lies somewhere in between the two.

this is a mess. he should have just said nothing. he did not have to appeal to the religious sector because didn't the polls indicate he was ahead of mccain?

Yes, but it is still too early to count on polls as being meaningful. McCain's courtship of religious Americans is still tenuous at best. Obama is attempting to poach the very people that Republicans have come to depend on (and even take for granted). It is just like how the Obama campaign is targeting 'Red' states, like Colorado, and attempting to pluck them from the Republican tree. That multiplies the damage done as it not only is a win for the Dems, but a loss for the Republicans - that's a 'two-fer'.

 

[Brandon716]

It should also be noted that it was Bill Clinton who, in 1996, signed into law the Welfare Reform Act which first permitted religious groups to receive federal government money for social outreach (ie. 'faith based programs').

Al Gore also said pretty much the same thing as Barack Obama when he was on the campaign trail back in 2000.

Even Hillary Clinton talked extensively about expanding 'faith-based initiatives' this past year.

George Bush, whose Republican party held both the House and Senate, was unable to get Congress to agree to fund the programs, so he had to resort to funding via executive orders and the like. It isn't likely that a Democratically-held Congress would agree to fund these programs either, so this becomes more of an empty 'feel good' speech for religious Americans (which is the vast majority) that all politicians from both major parties do each presidential cycle.

Hillary spoke of faith based funding? I didn't hear her apparently. You are the first person to mention it and I wonder if you're just defending Obama or if this is real.

Bill Clinton signed a law giving money to faith based charities? I never saw a bill or heard of it...

You'll have to link me with some proof.

 

[Brandon716]

Ah, after doing some Google searches, looks like the 1996 bill had a faith-charity provision slid in by John Ashcroft - Republican Senator of Missouri - that was part of a broader welfare reform bill that Clinton signed. They ultimately weren't funded.

That's a long way from what Obama is doing, and what Bush has done.

America suffers from the irresponsible party system, no one knows who is responsible for anything they do because the parties don't keep their members in line very often and Republicans bills get signed by Democratic Presidents (or vice versa) and the details get mixed up in the mess.

 

[JasonParis]

BTW, I think Obama just lost my vote. I supported Hillary anyway, but there is no way I can support a candidate who wants to expand the Bush religious welfare programs.

Nader is likely to gain a lot of support.

Nader could gain marginally sure, but not enough to probably change anything.

Horrible move on Obama's part, although I'm sure some advisor told him it's what he "needed to do."

 

[Brandon716]

Obama has lots of issues.

-Doesn't support universal health care, openly leaves people out
-Supports religious based, government funded charities in place of traditional welfare
-Is openly against gay marriage, hasn't made any serious attempts in any of his positions of power to make positive changes on this front
-Is as fake as fake can be on economic issues. He went to Ohio to bash NAFTA while his campaign was telling the Canadian ambassador not to worry its just campaign rhetoric.
-Just like most Democrats, he voted for every Iraq war funding bill until he started running for President.

I don't see much change, and its just another day in America if he's elected. I have no problem supporting Ralph Nader and have no dirty conscious because of it.

 

[Brandon716]

^And in addition to the above, and I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I actually admire John McCain on this issue. He's uncomfortable using government money to fund religious services of any kind, and he has taken a clear break with George W Bush on this.

It amazes me that the Republican party has chosen someone who is for a strict separation of church and state for the 2008 nominee and the Democrats have elected someone into the entire evangelical movement and wants to use government funds to buy the votes.

I just don't get it, its a total role reversal. While I won't be caught dead voting Republican, I'm not voting for Barack Obama. He's done for me. I was willing to accept "well, he doesn't support universal health insurance but..." and I was willing to negotiate on the Iraq thing because every Democrat dropped the ball on that issue back in the day save for Kucinich and a few others.

But the list is getting to long to negotiate now. I'm not an Obama supporter, never really was.

Unfortunately doesn't look like i'll be in Canada before I turn 30 so I might as well get used to it for a few more years.

 

[theowne]

-Just like most Democrats, he voted for every Iraq war funding bill until he started running for President.

Isn't this sort of a no-lose situation, though? I hear this one a lot, but if the troops are at war, won't the press and people harp on them endlessly if they don't vote for these bills, saying "they don't want to fund the troops, they hate America", etc?

Though I agree with everything else you said. And I admit I know very little about politics.

 

[Brandon716]

Isn't this sort of a no-lose situation, though? I hear this one a lot, but if the troops are at war, won't the press and people harp on them endlessly if they don't vote for these bills, saying "they don't want to fund the troops, they hate America", etc?

Though I agree with everything else you said. And I admit I know very little about politics.

Its no big deal, I wouldn't even expect many people on this forum to deeply care about US politics as its obviously a Canadian forum. I'm just disgusted with the entire US political system at this point. It doesn't matter which party obtains power, its going to be a nation of God with all kinds of government goodies for churches that have no business taking the money.

Technically its unconstitutional, but what does the constitution matter these days anyway? LOL

Much like the constitution of the old Soviet Union stated that all power comes from the people, in practice it never panned out, and the same is true of the US when it comes to separation of church/state.

Ultimately it comes down to the people, I'm not even sure I care about the politicians so much. I was upset at George W Bush in 2000 because he wasn't properly elected, he was selected as President. I was upset after 2004, it really shows the character of the American people.

Bush isn't the problem, the American people are. If there wasn't a big market for religious politics, Barack Obama wouldn't be doing what he is doing.

Again, I can't technically be upset at Obama, its ultimately the American people and the character of the US as a whole.

In Canada there isn't a constitutional separation of church and state that I'm aware of, but there is a public trust of sorts that believes in multiculturalism and the overwhelming majority don't want it, so by default you have a clear separation of church/state.

In America only a few minority voices in places like New York City or San Francisco ever seem to care about it, so its never going to be true in the US.

I genuinely like Canada more, and I wait for the day I'm able to move. Its been several years in the making and I've not given up, just will take several years longer.

And its not over this issue, but its just one more log to throw on the fire so-to-speak.

The biggest thing I'd find annoying about Ontario is that government dollars are spent at Catholic schools, but the irony still is that Catholic schools in Ontario are more a-religious than many public schools where I grew up in Tennessee. This past year they approved biblical classes to be taught in public schools back where I grew up, which is a radical transfer back in time before the 1960's. There has been a dramatic shift in just the 10 years since I was a high schooler.

Go figure. Its all about the character of people in the long run, forget government.


The United States is the most ironic of all western industrialized nations. No where will you find such worldly, advanced, scientific, architecturally magnificent, and wealthy cities such as San Francisco and New York, just to have the entire pie as a whole still be so backwards and screwed up. The tens of millions of people from Texarkana to Huntington, Fargo to Shreveport totally ruin what could be the greatest nation on Earth.

The United States is the only nation that has Manhattan, Chicago's Gold Coast, South of Market in San Francisco, West Hollywood, South Beach in Miami with its million dollar homes, just to have millions of square miles of Chicago's south side, Memphis' Orange Mound, West Virginia's more Eastern-european like economy, or South Central LA.

There is no balance.

The US is like a marine doped up on steroids swaggering his penis all over the place screaming look at me, but in the end the brawn is holding back the brains.

If I ever moved back to Chicago, I'd just have to accept the fact that my swanky north side apartment would be only a few miles away from an otherwise 3rd world country from South Michigan and 35th all the way to Park Forest.

 

[Admiral Beez]

why is he reaching out to the christain right? they're not going to vote for him anyway.

Perhaps not, but the Christian Left, Centre will vote for Obama. It is folly to assume that anyone who self identifies as a political active/concerned Christian is a right winger. There's growing speculation in the US media that the Christian Left will be a very strong influence in this election.

 

[Brandon716]

Perhaps not, but the Christian Left, Centre will vote for Obama. It is folly to assume that anyone who self identifies as a political active/concerned Christian is a right winger. There's growing speculation in the US media that the Christian Left will be a very strong influence in this election.

Obama's campaign is particularly going after evangelical blacks who lean left on issues of social justice unlike the evangelical white community that often believes in a conservative economic policy.

He believes there are enough African Americans in states like Mississippi and Georgia to flip them, and that's the core of his campaign in non-traditional Democratic states.

This isn't just an idea of mine, he has openly said such things. I might be able to find some You Tube recordings that would surprise you. These are some pretty big Obama planks and he's very much interested in making government tied to religion and spending big bucks to "the right" churches.

My opinion is that its total non-sense.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Perhaps not, but the Christian Left, Centre will vote for Obama. It is folly to assume that anyone who self identifies as a political active/concerned Christian is a right winger. There's growing speculation in the US media that the Christian Left will be a very strong influence in this election.

i wonder how big/influential the christian left is in the US?

i think most extreme religious types won't even vote (D or R) at election time because both candidates will fund hESC research.

 

[detroitbootybass]

In Canada there isn't a constitutional separation of church and state that I'm aware of, but there is a public trust of sorts that believes in multiculturalism and the overwhelming majority don't want it, so by default you have a clear separation of church/state.

You are aware that the Ontario legislature reads a christian prayer ("The Lord's Prayer") at the beginning of each day, right? And when someone suggested that maybe it might be a bit outdated with modern-day Canada, there was a fairly large public outcry and the idea was quickly nixed. Canada and US aren't really that different - take it from someone who has lived extensively in both countries... the grass always looks greener from the other side (but it isn't).