TTC suspects province is plotting a takeover

[RedRocket191]

i think we should just adopt a system like Edmonton for inter-regional travel. If a rider is transferring from one system to another, they pay a $1 region surcharge.

That's the most reasonable thing I've heard all day.

 

[ShonTron]

Is the $1 surcharge the transfer cost between Edmonton Transit and St. Albert?

That's not bad. Even OC Transpo and STO have a transfer discount agreement, and they serve different provinces. Even Windsor Transit - get this - has a transfer agreement for $1 off the tunnel bus connecting from D-DOT or SMART. Why crossing the Ottawa or Detroit River allows for a discounted transfer and not Steeles Avenue is stupid, stupid. And Presto is not planned to change this.

 

[299 bloor call control.]

The $1 surcharge is between Edmonton and St. Albert or Edmonotn and Strathcona County. And to boot, non-express St. Albert or Strathcona County buses are allowed to pick up and drop off passengers inside Edmonton boundaries and accept ETS fare media.

Something tells me though that once Presto is in full swing, Metrolinx will take over the entire fare system and collect all fares -- in return for funding 100% of the operational subsidy needs of all the systems. The local authorities would retain the right to plan service, providing they reach a target ratio.

 

[Chuck]

At this point, Presto will be completely useless, though I would assume that they would want to iron out the kinks before implementing anything drastic.

My fare policy is this: Charge 10 cents a km flat rate, no matter where you're going or how you get there. If you have spent more than $100 on transit in the past 30 days, no extra money is taken from your card. The max fare for any trip would be $2.50, though this might change if Newmarket, Oakville, or Brampton are factored in. If you forget to swipe at the end of your trip, $2.50 is deducted. And there you have it. No interregional surcharge, no zones, just straight fare by distance.

Under this system, those who live, work, and shop in the same general neighbourhood might spend $30 a month on transit. Those in NYCC commuting downtown might spend $55 per month. It is only once you reach Richmond Hill, Scarborough, or Mississauga that you might be in the $100 monthly pass or $2.50 per trip territory, assuming a daily commute downtown.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

There's a TTC employee at the front of the train, but all he does is close the doors and the train drives itself (so he's not a driver). In case of a problem, he could take over manual operation.

For all the technophobes out there, a flesh and blood driver will be a much appreciated presence whether he's driving or not. Things like speed controls, making sharp turns, outdoor portions of track and changes in grade/slope are areas the public will not want done automatronically alone.

My fare policy is this: Charge 10 cents a km flat rate, no matter where you're going or how you get there. If you have spent more than $100 on transit in the past 30 days, no extra money is taken from your card. The max fare for any trip would be $2.50, though this might change if Newmarket, Oakville, or Brampton are factored in. If you forget to swipe at the end of your trip, $2.50 is deducted. And there you have it. No interregional surcharge, no zones, just straight fare by distance.

Zoning in of itself is flawed. You'd be punishing residents by area code by implementing +$ for everyone commuting outside the immediate downtown. The TTC should do like the 905- issue time-based transfers such that when the time expires a new fare must be paid. They should also have fare integration with 416 GO stations such that valid ticket holders only have to pay $0.50 to ride the TTC. Cost recovery ineptitude is what's pushing customers away from the sTTingy C when a continuous commute from Oakville> Mississauga> Brampton> York Region> Toronto> Durham is largely possible and easy to initiate.

 

[CDL.TO]

For all the technophobes out there, a flesh and blood driver will be a much appreciated presence whether he's driving or not. Things like speed controls, making sharp turns, outdoor portions of track and changes in grade/slope are areas the public will not want done automatronically alone.

But all those things are being done automatically already on the SRT and I don't hear any public protests. The TTC is currently working on installing such a system on the YUS line, the first phase is Eglinton-Union.

 

[RedRocket191]

Zoning in of itself is flawed. You'd be punishing residents by area code by implementing +$ for everyone commuting outside the immediate downtown. The TTC should do like the 905- issue time-based transfers such that when the time expires a new fare must be paid. They should also have fare integration with 416 GO stations such that valid ticket holders only have to pay $0.50 to ride the TTC. Cost recovery ineptitude is what's pushing customers away from the sTTingy C when a continuous commute from Oakville> Mississauga> Brampton> York Region> Toronto> Durham is largely possible and easy to initiate.

To add to your point:

Not everyone can afford to live downtown, and it would be unfair to charge people who are forced to buy houses far away with higher transit costs. They should have relatively low transit costs to make it more competitive with their long and costly commutes.

It is not equitable to force people in the suburbs, who have generally poor service, more than people who live downtown and have relatively good service.

When all buses run every 20 minutes all the time, and when everyone is a five minutes walk away from a stop, and when everyone can get to frequent rapid transit within 10 minutes of getting on their first bus, then we can argue for a strict zone-based fare system.

 

[urbanfan89]

What about the flaws of zoning? If you put the 416 in one zone and Mississauga in another zone, then someone travelling from MCC to Sherway Gardens will be paying more than someone travelling from Long Branch to Malvern. That isn't right. You might divide the area into dozens of mini-zones like Copenhagen does, but that becomes too confusing. For cash fares, I would support giving people a choice for tickets that allow unlimited travel for 30, 60, 90, 120 minutes.

As for passes, we will have to go with zoning as it's ridiculous to force everyone to pay for something they won't fully use.

BTW have you seen my message?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Redrocket:

Not everyone can afford to live downtown, and it would be unfair to charge people who are forced to buy houses far away with higher transit costs. They should have relatively low transit costs to make it more competitive with their long and costly commutes.

It's not that simple though - because people did make the conscious choice in many (obviously not all) cases to buy a house instead of chosing other forms of living arrangements, knowing that the travel distance will increase. Beyond that, there is also oftentimes the explicit understanding that local transit is not a mode of transportation they will considering using. Under these circumstances, I am not sure why the cost should be spread out that evenly.

Now if one decides to intensify these areas/routes, then I can see it being a rationale to decrease fares.

AoD

 

[salvius]

Redrocket:



It's not that simple though - because people did make the conscious choice in many (obviously not all) cases to buy a house instead of chosing other forms of living arrangements, knowing that the travel distance will increase. Beyond that, there is also oftentimes the explicit understanding that local transit is not a mode of transportation they will considering using. Under these circumstances, I am not sure why the cost should be spread out that evenly.

Now if one decides to intensify these areas/routes, then I can see it being a rationale to decrease fares.

AoD

Well, nowhere near all choices. For families, there hardly is a choice. We've decided we're fine with that. Realistically, a 2br 800-900 sq ft condo isn't going to attract many 4 person households. There really isn't much 'choice' and few alternate arrangements -- unless you have lots of cash to blow.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Most people do not have a choice...most people *cannot* live downtown. If even a tiny amount of the 905 decided to try to move downtown, prices would explode. By the time we build several hundred more 40 storey condos, average household sizes could be low enough that families may actually be able to choose to live downtown.

 

[Chuck]

Not everyone can afford to live downtown, and it would be unfair to charge people who are forced to buy houses far away with higher transit costs. They should have relatively low transit costs to make it more competitive with their long and costly commutes.

That's why I recommend doing away with zones entirely, and moving to strict fare by distance. If you live in Scarborough, go to high school in Scarborough, or are going to a doctor's appointment in Scarborough, you pay a small cost. But regardless of whether it's a choice to live in the suburbs or not, a 30 km transit trip should cost more than a 5 km transit trip.

 

[RedRocket191]

a 30 km transit trip should cost more than a 5 km transit trip.

I agree with you, but only once we've moved away from downtown-centric transit. Under the current setup it won't work because most of the suburban systems (especially durham) are not designed to move people within cities. They are designed to get people to the GO stations and to the subways.

This is one of the failings of MoveOntario 2020. It doesn't make it any easier to travel within cities. Once we have a system that makes it just as easy to move from one corner of the city to the opposite corner as it is to get downtown, then we can think about moving to such a fare system.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

salvius:

Well, nowhere near all choices. For families, there hardly is a choice. We've decided we're fine with that. Realistically, a 2br 800-900 sq ft condo isn't going to attract many 4 person households. There really isn't much 'choice' and few alternate arrangements -- unless you have lots of cash to blow.

It all depends on what one consider as "reasonable" living arrangements. If you go the standard that each kid should have their own bedroom, then yeah, the choices are limited. But then's the result of a personal choice - this, incidentally, is also not just a downtown vs. suburban issue - you will find that increasingly at the growth centres as well - where the most transit accessible locales turns out to the ones housing everything but large number of families.

Redrocket:

This is one of the failings of MoveOntario 2020. It doesn't make it any easier to travel within cities. Once we have a system that makes it just as easy to move from one corner of the city to the opposite corner as it is to get downtown, then we can think about moving to such a fare system.

In order for that to happen, one needs to completely rethink planning in each of these cities in order to support such a transit system without breaking the bank. Incidentally, I have a feeling that's also one thing that many municipalities are not willing to look at for many reasons (rezoning, NIMBYism, infrastructure, etc).

AoD

 

[RedRocket191]

Land use planning has to be tied to transit planning, and you're right, it will be a challenge for municipalities to rethink the way we live.

I just hope that provincial cash could make transit work in sprawl.