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TTC: Streetcar Network

nfitz

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I'm okay with that. BBR's original low ball price was clearly predicated on a reliance on cheap, and demonstrably semi-skilled (or at least QA challenged) Mexican labour, and cutting corners on design that led to final assembly issues.
Almost seems to me there was a gentleman's agreement between TTC and BBD - that everyone was aware that BBD simply couldn't make them for the original option price, and best for everyone to have a new price. Which would still be cheaper than any other company having to gear up.
 

Towered

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Changing seats and adding additional screens isn't Minor. I was just saying that I don't expect them to do many changes that the public will actually notice. The only change that the general public is likely to notice would be that they wouldn't have trolley poles on them as by the time we receive them the streetcar network should be 100% pantograph ready with all streetcars using them at all times.

That sucks. I hate having to sit face to face with strangers.
 

EastYorkTTCFan

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That sucks. I hate having to sit face to face with strangers.
most of the LFRV's in the world have that type of seating mainly because of where the boogies (wheels) are placed on them. I know people have shown other possible design but those weren't options for what the TTC wanted or was presented by the potential candidates for contracts.
 

Steve X

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The options on the original BBD contract expired. This is a new contract for 13 units + options for 47 which was negotiated in 2020; it's not a bad price but it is higher than the original expired options pricing.
Have the TTC actually signed a contract with 13 initial order? There is zero press release from BBD themselves in the fall and yet any announcements from Alstom makes me think it was all talks and nothing has yet to be signed. TTC was just waiting to see if money comes through and then they'll make one order of 60 cars instead of signing for 13 cars last fall with and option of 47. Seems like so far to this date, they haven't bought a single car.

Does anyone know if Alstom have taken any orders for BBD product since the acquisition?
 

nfitz

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Have the TTC actually signed a contract with 13 initial order?
They mentioned verbally they had in the recent TTC board meeting. And in either that or the council meeting the following day mentioned that it contained a May 31 deadline for the options.

So presumably all 60 are signed now ... I"d expect an announcement soon.

The comments from the president of Alstom Canada at the press conference in May suggest that they are going ahead with the 60 cars.
 

turini2

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Hopefully the City can make its mind up sooner rather than later regarding Waterfront transit (and any other extensions like Broadview etc) - as an follow up order to this one would be required for additional service...

Given that we know that BBD lowballed the previous order, $6.7m is not a terrible price!
 

allengeorge

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Hopefully the City can make its mind up sooner rather than later regarding Waterfront transit
As much as I would love that, I’m not holding my breath. For some reason Waterfront transit seems like the forgotten child; it still boggles my mind that with all the growth at Humber Bay the city decided to nix the separated ROW was to the West, and now it looks like that slipped off the table completely.
 

jcam

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Hopefully the City can make its mind up sooner rather than later regarding Waterfront transit (and any other extensions like Broadview etc) - as an follow up order to this one would be required for additional service...

Given that we know that BBD lowballed the previous order, $6.7m is not a terrible price!
It wasn't so much a lowball, but that others had to factor into their price the cost of building Canadian manufacturing facilities to meet content requirements.
 

drum118

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As much as I would love that, I’m not holding my breath. For some reason Waterfront transit seems like the forgotten child; it still boggles my mind that with all the growth at Humber Bay the city decided to nix the separated ROW was to the West, and now it looks like that slipped off the table completely.
The west ROW is part of rebuilding the lake shore Blvd and moving it north. The current centre medium would become part of the ROW with a lane for an eastbound lane..

After all the reset study for the Waterfront Transit, there is talk an new EA will happen for the ramps to/from the Lake Shore from the Gardiner as well making the current eastbound Lake Shore lane over the Humber to a 2 way road with streetcar ROW on it in place of the current plan. A new ROW will be built on the Lake Shore west of The Humber to Legion road when work starts on the Mr. Christie Site that will require the widening of the road for 6 lanes in place of the current 4..

It takes money to build things and Toronto is well short on it at this time as well poorly funded TTC in the first place.

TTC think is there must be buses running to the redevelop Lower Don Lands/Portland first before rapid transit can happen when the 2004 Transit Master Waterfront Plan called for Rapid Transit to happen first to reduce the need for a car to live or work down there in the first place. TTC keeps shooting themselves in the foot of old thinking.

The cost of buying LRV's has gone up world wide over the last 10 years, but the current cost buying the extra 60 cars are over price.

BBD cost of TTC new fleet was based on cheap labour cost and material going to Mexico for it compare to NA cost that was higher than off shore cost. In the end, poor control on design and building quality did in BBD Mexico plan and they took a hit in the pocket by having things built in Canada and ship in from around the world at higher cost that eat up all the profit and some more.
 

smallspy

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The cost of buying LRV's has gone up world wide over the last 10 years, but the current cost buying the extra 60 cars are over price.
Really? Then Berlin's BVG is being overcharged according to you as well. They are paying almost the exact same price per car for a 117 vehicle order (20 cars are firm, the rest are options) as Toronto is. If all of their options get called, they will be paying about €4.88M per car - which at current exchange rates is about $7.15M CAD.

For the record, the Berlin situation is an almost exact parallel to Toronto's - a car customized for their purposes and network, 100% low-floor, an original fleet of just over 200 cars, and an add-on order a year or two after production ended. Oh, and produced by Bombardier, where things started off slowly and problematic but ended up getting finished at more-or-less the time they agreed upon.

Dan
 

superelevation

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Changing seats and adding additional screens isn't Minor. I was just saying that I don't expect them to do many changes that the public will actually notice. The only change that the general public is likely to notice would be that they wouldn't have trolley poles on them as by the time we receive them the streetcar network should be 100% pantograph ready with all streetcars using them at all times.
Screens are 100% a minor change, and seating could be. You can't move the bogies but seats can 100% be moved and redesigned.
 

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