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TTC: Streetcar Network

JSF-1

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New video up this week. A short one this week, looking at the Belt Line Streetcar (not to be confused with the Belt Line Railway).
 

W. K. Lis

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190160701_10165567514275495_4124808157678390480_n.jpg

From link.
 

EastYorkTTCFan

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I doubt there will be but, can we please get design improvements? These cars are a 10 year old design and surely we've learned lots. Remember those black stickers added to reduce glare for drivers? What about better internal displays and better seating designs?
I don't think that we are going to see anything changed seating wise. Also I doubt that they are going to do anything with the internal displays unless they plan on changing out the ones on the other 204. Keep in mind this is an extra order of 60 Streetcars and not a new order with a new design.
 

W. K. Lis

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I don't think that we are going to see anything changed seating wise. Also I doubt that they are going to do anything with the internal displays unless they plan on changing out the ones on the other 204. Keep in mind this is an extra order of 60 Streetcars and not a new order with a new design.
They had 22+ streetcars that had "issues" with them and were returned to fix them under warranty. Likely, the 60 will not have such "issues". Likely newer and up-to-date "components" will also be installed.
 

EastYorkTTCFan

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They had 22+ streetcars that had "issues" with them and were returned to fix them under warranty. Likely, the 60 will not have such "issues". Likely newer and up-to-date "components" will also be installed.
Yes the issue the ones being fixed by Bombardier had to do with the welding of the frames by the plant in Mexico. Because the TTC required stainless steel frames it requires a very specelized type of weld and what was happening was as soon as the workers in the plant in Mexico could do it they moved to other businesses with that skill and then new workers gas to be trained. The frames after that and for the crosstown vecheles were either imported from Europe or done in Quebec where they are taking the current ones to to be fixed.
 

W. K. Lis

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Some interesting differences between the Peter Witt, PCC, CLRV, ALRV, and Flexity Outlook streetcars. From link.

w-peterwitt.jpg

Between April 1921 and early 1923, the TTC ordered 575 cars: 250 large Witt cars, 100 small Witt cars and 225 trailers.
The first Witt cars entered service on the Broadview route on Oct. 2, 1921 and by 1923 were operating on seven routes. With the introduction of the PCC streetcars in 1938, and later the subway system, the Witt fleet slowly declined – the very last six vehicles being retired in 1963. Small Witt car 2766 is presently held as an historic vehicle.

Principal specifications​

Large Witt
Type – steel-sheathed construction​
Seats – 58​
Length – 51 ft 10 in (15.54 m)​
Width – 8 ft 6 in (2.5 m)​
Height – 11 ft 1 5/8 in (3.35 m)​
Weight – 50,000 lbs (22,679.6 kg)​
Speed – 20 m.p.h./15 secs​
Small Witt
Type – steel-sheathed construction​
Seats – 51​
Length – 47 ft (14.32 m)​
Width – 8 ft 6 in (2.5 m)​
Height – 10 ft 8 5/8 in (3.24 m)​
Weight – 39,700 lbs (18,007.6 kg)​
Speed- Max. 58 km-h/36 m.p.h.​


w-pcc.jpg

Between 1938 and 1945, the TTC acquired 290 cars of the original design, using air operation of doors, and wheel-tread brakes (for parking). Two cars (4001 and 4002) were displayed at the 1938 CNE. They first entered revenue operation on the St Clair route on Sept. 23, 1938. 250 more all-electric cars were purchased between 1947 and 1951.

The TTC eventually purchased a total of 745 new and second-hand cars between 1938 and 1957, giving Toronto the largest PCC car fleet in North America. The TTC’s last 19 PCCs were retired in 1995, but two of them (4500 and 4549) have been retired for charter service.

Principal specifications​

Type – rigid-frame, 4 axle, light-weight construction of car body and components​
Seats – 46​
Length – 46 ft 5 3/8 in (14.15 m)​
Width – 8 ft 4 in (2.53 m)​
Height – 10 ft 2 7/8 in (3.11 m)​
Weight – 37, 400 lbs (16,964.3 kg)​
Speed – Max. 68 km-h/42 m.p.h.​


w-CLRV.jpg

The first CLRV arrived on property on Dec. 29, 1977. The final car came in 1982. The CRLV first entered service on Sept. 30, 1979 on the 507 Long Branch route. The CLRV’s principal features included: chopper controls, electric regenerative braking, pneumatic disc brakes, air suspension, speed governor control, electrically heated windshield and five safety windows.

Principal specifications​

Type – rigid-frame, four-axle​
Seats – 46​
Length – 50 ft 8 in (15.44 m)​
Width – 8 ft 6 in (2.5 m)​
Height – 11.5 ft (3. 36 m)​
Weight – 50,000 lbs (22,679.6 kg)​
Speed – Max. 80 km-h/50 m.p.h.​


w-ALRV.jpg

The first ALRV entered service on Jan. 19, 1988 on the 507 Long Branch route.

Shipments were completed in 1989.

Principal specifications​

Type – two-section-articulated, six-axle​
Seats – 61​
Length – 76.75 ft (23.16 m)​
Width – 11.50 ft (3.36 m)​
Weight – 81,000 lbs (36,741 kg)​
Speed – Max. 80 km-h/50 m.p.h.​


w-newcar.jpg

Principal specifications​

Type – LFLRV, multi-articulated, six-axle​
Seats – 70​
Length – 30.20 m​
Width – 2.54 m​
Height – 3.84 m​
Weight – 48,200 kg​
Speed – max 70 km/h​
 

superelevation

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Yes the issue the ones being fixed by Bombardier had to do with the welding of the frames by the plant in Mexico. Because the TTC required stainless steel frames it requires a very specelized type of weld and what was happening was as soon as the workers in the plant in Mexico could do it they moved to other businesses with that skill and then new workers gas to be trained. The frames after that and for the crosstown vecheles were either imported from Europe or done in Quebec where they are taking the current ones to to be fixed.
No reason there can't be some minor changes with a new order. This isn't without precedent!
 

EastYorkTTCFan

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No reason there can't be some minor changes with a new order. This isn't without precedent!
Changing seats and adding additional screens isn't Minor. I was just saying that I don't expect them to do many changes that the public will actually notice. The only change that the general public is likely to notice would be that they wouldn't have trolley poles on them as by the time we receive them the streetcar network should be 100% pantograph ready with all streetcars using them at all times.
 
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Admiral Beez

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I doubt there will be but, can we please get design improvements? These cars are a 10 year old design and surely we've learned lots. Remember those black stickers added to reduce glare for drivers? What about better internal displays and better seating designs?
With these being made by Alstrom will we still get the low price of Bombardier? Will they still be made in Mexico and Thunder Bay?

Of note, https://www.alstom.com/alstom-canada makes no mention of TB.
 

EastYorkTTCFan

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With these being made by Alstrom will we still get the low price of Bombardier? Will they still be made in Mexico and Thunder Bay?

Of note, https://www.alstom.com/alstom-canada makes no mention of TB.
It was announced that they would be built in Thunder Bay as they already have the lines set up for them and it wouldn't make sense for them to start up a new line at a new facility for them.
 

Admiral Beez

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It was announced that they would be built in Thunder Bay as they already have the lines set up for them and it wouldn't make sense for them to start up a new line at a new facility for them.
Will Alstrom honour BBR’s lowball price? That was the appeal over Alstrom, Siemens, et al back in the day.

Is there still a Mexican connection? Did Alstrom assume BBR’s plant there?
 

EastYorkTTCFan

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Is there still a Mexican connection? Did Alstrom assume BBR’s plant there?
I don't think that plant has been used for the frames lately because of the issues with the first few that had to be repaired by Bombardier. After that they either imported them from Europe or are produced in Quebec.
 

rbt

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With these being made by Alstrom will we still get the low price of Bombardier? Will they still be made in Mexico and Thunder Bay?

Of note, https://www.alstom.com/alstom-canada makes no mention of TB.

The options on the original BBD contract expired. This is a new contract for 13 units + options for 47 which was negotiated in 2020; it's not a bad price but it is higher than the original expired options pricing.
 
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Admiral Beez

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The options on the original BBD contract expired. This is a new contract for 13 units + options for 47 which was negotiated in 2020; it's not a bad price but it is higher than the original expired options pricing.
I'm okay with that. BBR's original low ball price was clearly predicated on a reliance on cheap, and demonstrably semi-skilled (or at least QA challenged) Mexican labour, and cutting corners on design that led to final assembly issues.
 

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