TTC: Streetcar Network

[steveintoronto]

But with juggernauts like these there's only so much that can be done.

And the clearance between street furniture on King, and parked cars (many of which are not fully to the curb) make for an incredibly dangerous tight-rope for cyclists with absolutely no margin for the unexpected, like a rut in the road or a pothole or hitting the yellow 'safety' strip at streetcar stops which are extremely slippery when wet.

I'm a seasoned and internationally experienced cyclist riding a tamed racing machine (from Argos Racing in the UK) with incredibly responsive steering and balance, and there's just no freakin' way I'll take a chance trying to ride the tightrope...and yet you see many cyclists doing it. I like to stay alive in one piece.

On the upside, thank God most of those cyclists aren't driving. The accident rate would skyrocket...At least on a bike most of them just injure themselves.

 

[nfitz]

^You're talking in circles:

You explicitly used Seattle as an example of a fenced transit mall while discussing King Street.

Seattle doesn't fence it's streetcar lines, and there's no surface LRT anywhere near downtown - its mostly in a deep tunnel, or in an inaccessible trench. A lot of what you say is interesting and valuable, but you'd be more credible to simply correct your errors, rather than pointing to other stuff!

 

[steveintoronto]

You explicitly used Seattle as an example of a fenced transit mall while discussing King Street.

Seattle doesn't fence it's streetcar lines, and there's no surface LRT anywhere near downtown - its mostly in a deep tunnel, or in an inaccessible trench. A lot of what you say is interesting and valuable, but you'd be more credible to simply correct your errors, rather than pointing to other stuff!

Well why don't you quote it instead of keep insisting what your imagination says?

Many cities fence or barrier their LRT RoWs. Some use hedges, typically the Europeans.

Here's three Cdn ones, two of them right in our own backyard:

www.tritag.ca/blog/.../ion-walkability-fences-and-its-never-too-late-to-fix-mistakes/
Aug 15, 2016 - ION light rail, well under construction, is going to tie our region ... While we may have afence after all, it is proving not to be a barrier at all, ...
[PDF]
Chapter 13 SLRT Design Guidelines - City of Edmonton

https://webdocs.edmonton.ca/occtopusdocs/Public/Complete/.../2007TD9871.pdf
Landscape Guidelines for the South Light Rail Transit (LRT) Extension – UMA 2001 .... If practicable,fencing/barriers should be installed adjacent to surface LRT ...
[PDF]
hurontario-main lrt project - Metrolinx

www.metrolinx.com/en/projectsandprograms/.../System_Design_Guidelines.pdf
May 21, 2014 - -huronTario main sTreeT lrT corridor masTer plan ...... Living Fence: a natural screenbarrier planted with live willow plants woven into a wood ...

-Google for "LRT fencing barrier".

Seattle, San Diego, LA, Portland are others. How "awful".

There's always the alternative as practised on the Bourke Street Mall core section (where cars, cycles are banned): 10 kph max speed limit, with streetcars (trams) in warning mode: Flashing lights and clanging bells.

For some reason, that appears to buck the intention of the King Street Transit Mall.

As per Seattle:

Design for safety

As Sound Transit began testing its LRT railcars in the spring, there were three accidents during that time, two involving motorists and one a pedestrian. All three incidents occurred in Rainier Valley, where the trains run in a median at street level, and there are 28 street crossings. Sound Transit did not install crossing arms at the intersections because trains are traveling at 35 mph or less, and neighbors did not want them. [Seattle Times, 30 June 2009] The number of auto accidents along the line in Rainier Valley is expected to decline, because the train tracks replace two-way left-turn lanes that have themselves been implicated in a number of accidents. In addition, by diverting travel from motor vehicles to LRT, the new transit service is expected to reduce traffic somewhat.

To achieve a safe environment, particularly for pedestrians, Sound Transit has implemented a number of safety measures.

• "Z-crossings" have been installed – guiding pedestrians, via pathway channelling, to face approaching trains while walking through intersections...
• Concrete islands have been installed to let walkers stop safely in midstreet...
• Uneven brickwork near the rails is designed to deter joggers...
• Short fences at stations discourage people from crossing between the boarding platforms...
• Warning signs with a train icon flash when trains approach.

To further enhance overall security, Sound Transit has added more than 60 new security guards, and Sheriff's deputies patrol the line.
[...]

https://www.lightrailnow.org/news/n_sea_2009-11a.htm

Addendum:

Calgary's C-Train is in the midst of unfortunate news today, two deaths, and a number recently prior. It would be even higher, save for:

Although not universally grade separated, the CTrain is able to operate at high speeds on much of its track because it is separated from traffic and pedestrians by fences and concrete bollards. The downtown 7th Avenue transit way is limited to trains, buses, and emergency vehicles, with private cars prohibited. Trains are given priority right of way at most road crossings outside of downtown. As a result, trains are able to operate at 80 km/h (50 mph) outside of downtown, and 40 km/h (25 mph) along the 7th Avenue corridor. 7th Avenue is a free fare zone, intended as a downtown people-mover to encourage use for short hops through the downtown core. The city manages to achieve very high transit capacity on the 7th Avenue transit corridor by staging the traffic lights, so that all the trains move forward in unison to the next station on the synchronized green lights, and load and unload passengers on the intervening red lights. The trains are now 1 block long, but buses occupy the empty gaps every second block between trains and the buses unload and load passengers while the trains pass them.[87] [...]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CTrain

 

[nfitz]

That's a grade-separated rapid transit line - and no where near downtown. It's more akin to the Vancouver Skytrain not the King streetcar.

They are not ever fencing something like the King streetcar!

 

[steveintoronto]

That's a grade-separated rapid transit line - and no where near downtown. It's more akin to the Vancouver Skytrain not the King streetcar.

They are not ever fencing something like the King streetcar!

You're getting truly desperate. Here's what I wrote:

Many cities fence or barrier their LRT RoWs. Some use hedges, typically the Europeans.

Here's three Cdn ones, two of them right in our own backyard:

They are not ever fencing something like the King streetcar!

Streetcars account for half of deadly TTC collisions with pedestrians, cyclists
By BEN SPURRTransportation Reporter
Wed., June 27, 2018
[...]
Gil Penalosa, founder of 8-80 Cities, a non-profit that advocates for sustainable mobility options, said streetcars aren’t inherently unsafe. But he suggested the TTC could make modifications to reduce collisions.

“I do think there is clearly a problem of design,” he said, arguing that railings should be erected on rights-of-way to guide streetcar passengers toward safe intersections, rather than allowing them to cross midblock.

“How could we invest so much money on the streetcar (system), but not make those small changes?” he asked.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...ttc-collisions-with-pedestrians-cyclists.html

TTC convenes group to study fatal streetcar collisions

OLIVER MOORE
URBAN TRANSPORTATION REPORTER
PUBLISHED OCTOBER 10, 2018
[...]
Transit-only lanes are a particular danger, according to the TTC. These dedicated rights of way, which are featured on a number of busy streets, including Spadina Avenue and Queens Quay, are often used as a refuge by pedestrians crossing mid-block. To prevent these collisions, the agency would like to erect barriers in places.

“There’s a reluctance to fence it off or anything, but I think it’s time to really think harder about it,” Mr. O’Grady said. “Ironically, getting off in the middle of Queen Street, on an active [road] is safer than crossing St. Clair or Spadina. You know, we have more injuries and fatalities in rights of way than other places.”

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...es-group-to-study-fatal-streetcar-collisions/

You can proffer whatever opinion you like, @nfitz , but Messrs Spurr et Moore are a little closer to the sources I weigh a tad more seriously.

That's a grade-separated rapid transit line

Here's what was linked:

A predominately at grade design with a protected right of way was implemented to optimize the length of the system, while maximizing operating speed and accessibility.

https://web.archive.org/web/2008040...gary_CTrain_Effective_Capital_Utilization.pdf

 

[nfitz]

You're getting truly desperate. Here's what I wrote:

... whatever ... I think it's pretty clear!!

Here is what you wrote, that I responded to ...

It's pedestrians who're getting hit on the dedicated lanes, and that's because of the lack of fencing or barriers, again, a point to be made for the King Pilot: The need for controlled pedestrian crossings gated by lights.
King Street, bars, alcohol, nighttime, and streetcars passing by with inches to spare and no fencing control.

The reason I raise King Street is because many if not most transit malls do have fencing in other cities. I've discussed and detailed it in the King Street Pilot string.

I think you are wrong here - fencing King Street is not the solution, and there is not a need for it. Nor do I think similar transit malls do this - your Seattle example is no where near a transit mall - it's more akin to TTC Line 3 or the Vancouver Skytrain than King Street.

It will never happen.

All I'm saying is that it's pretty obvious they'll never be fencing the streetcar tracks along King Street - I honestly can't think or a worse idea to be honest!

Please stop linking other stuff - I've looked at a few of the, and none of them mention anything about fencing King Street.

 

[steveintoronto]

Posts continue in the King Pilot string...

 

[W. K. Lis]

Fences? Used to be the city didn't even paint the center line along streetcar routes.

From link.

 

[steveintoronto]

Fences? Used to be the city didn't even paint the center line along streetcar routes.

From link.

That was never the TTC's jurisdiction. It was Roads'.

To be clear, when I refer to "fences" it's at some locations, mostly stops and stations where pedestrians and passengers would otherwise stream across the tracks, just like you posted in the King Pilot string.

Even in Ottawa, they're designing the stations to have fencing as a safety feature. We should consider fencing on the surface streetcar (and future light rail) stations and stops.

See link.

https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/king-street-pilot-streetcar-transit-priority.19816/page-80

 

[robmausser]

You've taken a lot of what I posted out of context. In the case of the TTC, and many other operators, the fencing goes down the centre of the RoW in areas that are problematic. It's to stop pedestrians and cyclists from crossing the tracks. Forms of this already exist in Toronto.

There's been many pics and references posted of European RoWs with hedges instead of physical fences posted in the King Pilot Project. Paris is awash in them as is London, Brussels, etc. Pedestrians cross at gates that are usually signalled or at intersections.

San Diego has most of their extensive system fenced. I spent extensive time there on a number of occasions, know it well. Here's another example:

https://addisfortune.net/columns/restrictive-light-rail-fences-lead-businesses-to-huge-losses/


View attachment 160335
https://www.curbed.com/2017/1/24/14361030/best-cities-public-transportation-light-rail-bus

MONDAY, 11 MARCH 2013

A new fencing panel being lifted into place by council workmen just south of Little Bispham on February 27th
The winter maintenance programme on Blackpool Tramway has included the ongoing replacement of old sections of fencing on the reserved track sections. During February new sections of fencing were noted being installed alongside the tramroad just south of Little Bispham.

Flexity 008 passing council workers replacing a section of fencing on the tramroad near Little Bispham
http://blackpooltram.blogspot.com/2013/03/fencing-replacement-work.html

I'll post more pics and examples later.

Some minimalist fencing is 100% need on the Queens Quay ROW.

I constantly see so many people wander onto the ROW when walking, its only a matter of time that someone gets killed.

TTC also has a slow order on that track permenently, which caused them to wrongly claim and justify that dedicated ROWs beside roads doesnt work. Even though it works fine in every other city. However every other city uses fencing and barriers.

So now we will see all new streetcar ROWS in the middle of the street again, where they are subject to left hand turn signal delays.

Blinders! Get your Toronto blinders here! No seeing how people in other cities do things!

 

[steveintoronto]

Some minimalist fencing is 100% need on the Queens Quay ROW.

I constantly see so many people wander onto the ROW when walking, its only a matter of time that someone gets killed.

TTC also has a slow order on that track permenently, which caused them to wrongly claim and justify that dedicated ROWs beside roads doesnt work. Even though it works fine in every other city. However every other city uses fencing and barriers.

So now we will see all new streetcar ROWS in the middle of the street again, where they are subject to left hand turn signal delays.

Blinders! Get your Toronto blinders here! No seeing how people in other cities do things!

Rob: Exactly. You can't even walk down the sidewalk without running into zombies on their iMemyself devices. What has always been a high-risk just got higher still in the last decade. They're just not looking, and ditto with cyclists and motorists.

Just as separated cycling infrastructure is necessary to cater for a generation of mentally absent cyclists, and God only knows what for drivers, so are partial barrier separated streetcar/LRT RoWs.

Or we end up with the Melbourne example, as you allude to with QQ:

 

[W. K. Lis]

It bugs me that the TTC went with concrete on the Queensway streetcar right-of-way. Why didn't they use an section of the right-of-way to experiment with different right-of-way materials? Concrete, grass, artificial grass, and so on. Then after five or so years, use that on the rest of the right-of-way.

What started me on this? See link. Couldn't they use the incoming BMO 95% grass mix to see if it would work as a right-of-way material?

 

[JSF-1]

It bugs me that the TTC went with concrete on the Queensway streetcar right-of-way. Why didn't they use an section of the right-of-way to experiment with different right-of-way materials? Concrete, grass, artificial grass, and so on. Then after five or so years, use that on the rest of the right-of-way.

What started me on this? See link. Couldn't they use the incoming BMO 95% grass mix to see if it would work as a right-of-way material?

Every attempt to do so is met by a stiff rejection (or a lot of complaining) by emergency services.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

It bugs me that the TTC went with concrete on the Queensway streetcar right-of-way. Why didn't they use an section of the right-of-way to experiment with different right-of-way materials? Concrete, grass, artificial grass, and so on. Then after five or so years, use that on the rest of the right-of-way.

What started me on this? See link. Couldn't they use the incoming BMO 95% grass mix to see if it would work as a right-of-way material?

It's been said a few times on the queen's quay thread that it was because of Toronto emergency services wanting to be able to use the rights of way for emergency vehicles.

 

[vic]

It's been said a few times on the queen's quay thread that it was because of Toronto emergency services wanting to be able to use the rights of way for emergency vehicles.

There are options for this. E.g.:
https://www.pavingstones.com/products/interlocking-paving-stones/grassgrid